Hey guys. I got an email from Frost it seems that my explosion over on twitter this morning reached him. So he dropped me a line asking what’s up, why was I upset and also to consider that I might have misread and misunderstood his post. I’m not linking it here. If you want to go check it out. Go to WoW.com and look at the Scattered Shots Post for today.
Now I want to be clear. My rant today wasn’t directed at Frostheim personally. Really! NO! Really, I don’t have anything personal against Frostheim. He’s really doing some great stuff over at WHU and he’s done a really great job with Scattered Shots. Readership is up. Interest in Hunters are up. All good.
So don’t go out there and start causing trouble alright?
I do have some REALLY major issues with the MaxDPS philosphy that is so popular in the Elitist communities. I’ve strived for a long time here at the Lodge to promote “It’s a game so you should be having fun. And when raiding, play what you want, but play it to your best ability.”
The spec I choose to play may not be what you choose to play. That’s all good. But don’t start making claims that just aren’t true or at the least partially true. These are the things that tick me off most.
Here’s the truth and then I’ll get to the post. All Hunter Spec’s are Raid Viable. ALL OF THEM! Yes, including BM! HOWEVER (and that’s a huge but. Like the size of a Bear Druid Butt) not all specs are optimum. So when you decided to raid a spec. Make sure you understand what you’re able to do and how to play it the best you can. Okay? Good. Now on with the show.
Brigwyn,
Hey, someone just emailed me saying you were upset with the most recent article on Twitter (I’m not on Twitter, myself), specifically with my saying BM is not raid viable.
I’m curious what points you disagree with. To be clear, I did say that BM was raid viable, in fact I said: “Without question a very good and very geared BM hunter can pull their weight in raids.”
However I also said that they were about 20-30% behind on dps, which seems to be correct by every viable data source I can find. I do have a philosophical problem with choosing to do that much less dps than you could do — thus the Bob comparison, and if Bob is MM, he’s doing more dps than the BM hunter.
Do you disagree with the data, or with the philosophy? I can understand the logic of “doing enough dps is enough” though I don’t agree. But if you have different data, I’d love to hear it!
-Frost
Hey Frost,
Yeah.. I have to admit I had a bit of a Hunter-rage moment. I’m putting a “response” post that’ll go into greater detail. And I’ll make sure to clarify anything that people might mistake as my comments being directed at you personally. They’re not. But that’s not really what you’re asking so I’ll give the short answer here and then shoot you the link to the post later.
However, I do need to make sure that we’re on the same page about something. I’m extremely spec agnostic. Ask anyone. I stress the importance of the player playing their class/spec of choice to the best of their ability. I’ll point the max potential differences but don’t actively advocate one spec over the other. Okay, now that’s said.
Yes, “technically” it is true you state BM is raid viable. You go on to either place unnecessary qualifiers or make the statement invalid by stressing the “Philosophical” reasons. I’ll try to highlight a couple of points.
First you set up the post stating, “First of all, I have no dog in this fight. I am a DPS whore and I will happily change to whatever spec will give me the most DPS in raids.”
This actually sets what you really are trying to state. You’re not arguing viability but optimization. However, it sends a clear message that “Spec Optimization = Spec Viability.” We both know that’s not true but that’s what is communicated. (Well, at least to me and from what I saw your readers.)
Next you say, “As Grandpappy Frostheim has taught us, historically we hunters only had one viable raiding spec. This isn’t unusual in pure DPS classes either. In point of fact, it’s pretty remarkable that we have two viable raiding specs now in MM and SV. In fact I’m pretty sure that no pure DPS class has three viable raiding specs.
So let’s right now throw out the argument of “I should be able to raid in whatever spec I want.” If demanding reasonable results from Blizzard…”
Reading that sentence you’ve made a distinct definition of Spec being Talent Tree. Not the selection of those talents. And actually Blizzard does go through great pains to make sure that all three are viable. I will concede asking for 3 Optimum Talent trees would too much. But 3 Talent trees? Not so much.
And just so we’re clear, we’ve both been doing this long enough that we know that each of us know I’m not advocating that someone just throw there talent selections just anywhere. There is a path that Blizzard has defined as the one that will give your character and raid the highest chance of success.
Your list of “Why” to play BM really isn’t an issue. Some people will take umbrage your classification of “Easy to Play”. But I’ve never really thought that was a battle worth fighting. Besides, you explained your definition “easier” and I have to agree 100%.
Now here is probably where we’ll start to differ. It’s on the BM on the DPS Meters.
I’m not going to argue the numbers because to me they’re more about optimization than viability.
However, I will offer two points where I have an issue with the application of Theorycrafting.
First, though the Mathmatical numbers can show one spec’s potential is tremendously higher than the other. These don’t always translate into real world performance.
When this happens, we (Bloggers/Theorycrafters) tend to through it out as anecdotal. But that’s not 100% accurate. It is empirical evidence of an exception to the calculated results.
I really think we all need to be very clear that the numbers and formulas we present can’t take into consideration the outlying variables based on the other 9/24 people in the raid.
Also, how many times do we see calculations and claims of viability being based upon Max potential and not Boss Requirements?
I love how we’ll all calculate a Min/Max number and immediately declare what is viable or not. But in reality this is only a list of what is Maximum it in no way determines viability.
See, we all tend to miss 2 critical steps.
1. We never calculate what the required Raid DPS is for a Boss Fight.
2. We never calculate the hunter’s portion of that Raid DPS to determine if the difference between Spec A and Spec B will make a difference and determine one is viable or not.
That’s because Buffs, rotations, timing it all changes depending on the people behind the keyboard. Or like my case, maybe the keyboard itself. And is extremely difficult to model.
But we can put in our anecdotal (Individual) Raid/Group DPS numbers or at the very least average DPS numbers on Boss Kills. Then if the +/- between specs show that the difference between specs would determine a successful kill or not we’ve given a better representation of what really is viable or not. (Well within +/- of the RNG).
Hopefully that makes sense and shows why these types of posts claiming viability based on “Scientific” data infuriates me so. They really are incomplete and don’t prove anything other than which has the highest DPS potential.
I think we’ll probably end up disagreeing on this point and that’s okay. It’s more of a philosophical debate.
Well that’s the hard part. Now to the truly philosophical part.
You make a very poor comparison that I truly think was designed to elicit a response. Comparing a player that decides to do less dps by choosing a lest optimum spec is like a player that doesn’t know how to play their class.
“…But we’d never accept a melee hunter trying to raid, because we know they could do so much more DPS by just learning to play the class at range.”
Ooo, Ouch! Did you really mean that? I’m pretty sure you didn’t. You didn’t really intend to say that ALL BM hunters don’t know how to play. Right?
I think you were honestly trying to support your Max DPS Raiding Philosophy. More than likely you meant that many hunters claim they can’t play as well and do more DPS in their preferred spec. But that this really shouldn’t be viewed as proof, but just the fact that the player hasn’t become as comfortable and really learned the new spec as well as they had with their old one. And if they stuck with it long enough, you’re pretty sure their DPS would eventually exceed their current numbers.
Even on this point. I ask you why would a player that is doing sufficient DPS and is enjoying the game want to change and possibly lose their Raid spot to learn how to play a new spec? To earn one? Maybe if their guild requires it, but just for the sake of possibly earning back their Raid spot after finally increasing their DPS? I’m not sure that frustration would be worth it. And if you really think it wouldn’t happen. Ask yourself. If a player switched from an “Accepted” raiding spec to their preferred spec and saw a significant loss in DPS would you not ask them to switch back or replace them? Based on how I read your MaxDPS philosophy? I’m pretty sure you would.
Finally, you talk about Raiding is a Team Sport.
This is where you wrap up and drive home the idea that “MaxDPS” truly does define what is viable or not. Given, this is all based on “your opinion.” But you just spent an entire article building a case that proves your opinion valid. And nowhere did it really show an that you remained unbiased.
Now as for Team Sports. There are many different levels of “Team Sports.” There’s Backyard Fun (Social Casuals), Community/Organizational Leagues (Casual Raiding), Club/School League (Raiding Focused), Collegiate/Amateur/AA Baseball/Farm League (Progression Raiding), Professional (Competitive Progression).
As you can see all of these really apply to raiding and there is a wide range of abilities and skill involved. I’ve seen some people I would say are Collegiate if not Pro worthy basketball players in Club.
So really you’re again stressing that EVERYONE should be focused and playing with the mindset of achieving Professional or Competitive Progression results. Basically, the message I read was, “If you’re not willing to sacrifice your personal preferences for the name of achieving your Max Potential, well then you’re not really viable and I don’t need you.”
Okay, maybe those weren’t your exact words. I think you really said,”However it is also without question that BM is also doing considerably less DPS than other specs, and they’re doing less DPS by choice. As a pure DPS class our job is to put out as much DPS as possible while also following our role in the specific fight, and I do have a philosophical problem with choosing to do so much less DPS. I get that it’s what they prefer to play, but in my mind it’s a matter of what’s best for the team. Raiding is a team sport. It’s not just about carrying your minimum DPS mark, it’s about doing everything you can to help the team.”
I don’t know. Even reading it again, I still get the same basic message. If you choose to do less DPS than you’re potential. I don’t want you.
You end the post by using Bob as the example. Again, this example basically communicates to the reader that a BM raider is worthless. You communicate that a BM Raider is just as bad as a player that chooses bad gear and the wrong enhancements, doesn’t use buffs, flasks, etc..
That reads as a deliberate slap in the face and insult to many players out there. I don’t think it was intended as such. But the result is the same.
So yes. I strongly disagree. You’re post might have “stated” that BM is viable. But it sure seems you went out of your way to prove why is really isn’t.
Well, at least that’s how I read it.
Happy hunting and best regards,
Eddie (aka Brigwyn)
Sorry for the Wall of Text Crit. But There you have it. My true feeling and response to today’s Scattered Shots post.
Eddie “Brigwyn” Carrington is often known as being that crazy dwarf on Twitter.
He's also a blogger, podcaster (Hosts Brigwyn's Corner, Co-host of Everything Blah! and of course Redneck Geek and Cajun Gamer with his good friend Andy "Daewin" Dino. 
/patpat
Solidarity from your frosty bretheren. I think Frostheim was trying to speak out to a particular subset of players who care more about performance output than performance style. I’m not knocking on that, to each their own. Some people just forget that while there is a disparity between effort, output, and preference, some people do aim for all three and are capable of achieving them. It all comes down to knowing who you are as a player, what skills you own, and what kind of people you deserve to be raiding with. If you are capable of finding these, then it shouldn’t matter what other people say. Hang tough kiddo, Cataclysm is bound to shift the balance once again!
Heya Krizzly!
I like the way you put it.
You’re right. Many people often forget that it takes all three to make a positive experience.
Thx Krizz.
OH!! and what do you get off calling me “kiddo” hmm?? ROFL!
And along with that, basically insulted all elves, draenei, and people who use bows who is a fucking large portion of the hunter community!
Well they’re more than welcome here.
We have all kinds of room with extra beer in the fridge, freshly plucked feathers for your arrows and even some extra resin and cat gut lying around if you need it. 
Come to think of it, the Lodge may well have been the huntery blog that convinced me to start blogging myself. Goes to show doesn’t it ^^
Awww. I think this has just become my favorite comment of all time.
TYVM!! That truly means a TON to me. XD
Once Cataclysm hits and BM hunters have tamed Deathwing we’ll see who’s raid viable! Oh yes we will! XD
HAHA! That so reminds me of an awesome Scout Report comic! (link)
Yup! Glad to see we’re on the same page.
I’m happy to see more and more BM hunters in raids these days. I’ve even personally converted a few after pulling #1 dps in 25 mans and having them message me asking about the spec. To eliminate any spec simply because the latest cookie cutter build dictates it’s not the absolute best is ridiculous and quite honestly a clear indicator of a lack of skill. I’m really happy to see you calling him out (politely) about his recent posts regarding BM.
<3
It’s interesting you say this. Stay tuned. I hope to have follow up post out tomorrow.
While I don’t play a hunter, I think Blizzard has done a wonderful job trying to make every talent tree of every class at least somewhat viable. Getting back to hunters, however, there may be a time when one spec is completely preferred over another; for example, if there is a situation where it would be nice to have another “DPS” in the raid to attack multiple things at once on separate sides of the room (Lady Deathwhisper maybe?) perhaps it would be ideal to have a BM hunter in the raid.
My point is that while you may not be doing the Max DPS for your class, you may bring some other benefit to the raid that another spec does not, ultimately helping out your raid more.
I know it makes me sound like a Blizzard fanboy. But if you really think about it. How many times do they have to actually buff a class vs. nerf it? Especially for PvE and not due to some PvP reason.
This is because as much as everyone complains, it’s very rarely that they’ve nerfed something so bad that they have to go back and find a solution.
3% raid wide damage increase comes to mind.
You know what would be great… if we had a fairly established raider run the same raid, with the same 10M group/gear, but one week in MM/SV and the next week as BM. It would be really interesting to see through their documentation how the raid’s success varied from the two weeks. I am not talking about posting recount charts for each boss. I would really like to see how the fights differed for the entire group week to week. Was the Saurfang fight quicker/slower/easier/harder for one reason or another. What kind of effect did Ferocious Inspiration have on the entire group versus Trueshot Aura/Hunting Party? While this may not be a “Theorycrafting” worthy endeavor, I think it would be interesting to see the results.
I have to agree this would be pretty cool. It would only be a specific case and couldn’t be used across the board. But it would be compelling none the least.
Great idea. So when will I have your report? Next Friday?
I understood it that BM was raid viable just not optimal in the Scattered Shots post. Not sure how you saw it. Yes, he did somewhat dog the dps that it puts out…compared to the other spec but then said that the dps it does do is still respectable…guess I just don’t see what you are upset at. Either way, happy hunting.
I think the heart of his message was that if you want to do the best dps you can do, you can’t raid as BM…which is true. Numbers don’t lie. If your raid/guild is ok with you being BM and not doing as much dps as you could in MM or Surv., so be it…make your pet big and red and have fun…but the numbers don’t like…BM is not as high dps wise as the other two specs right now.
Howdy Bloodbane,
It’s interesting you mention this. I’ve been trading emails with Frost today discussing this very point.
Frost did state that BM is “Viable” but if you read it as I did and obviously several others did. He invalidates that statement once he starts giving his philosophy. Then the bias, driven by numbers or not, start to show its ugly head.
But I’ll just say one quick additional point. If Frost would have maybe been more clear about what he really meant at that point was “Raid Optimization” and not Viability, I wouldn’t have had as much of an issue. But that’s wasn’t the point of his post. It was really to “prove” BM’s viability.
And on that point, I’m not sure he communicated that point as clear as he maybe could have been.
I see what you mean now. There is a difference between viable and optimum. Maybe a different title for frost would have made it more clear.
Waah, waah. Frost is right and you’re wrong. Are you just jealous because people like his Scattered Shots better than yours?
I know the post was long so you probably didn’t catch this point so I felt it was worth highlighting here.
Really, I don’t have anything personal against Frostheim. He’s really doing some great stuff over at WHU and he’s done a really great job with Scattered Shots. Readership is up. Interest in Hunters are up. All good.
Just so we’re both on the same page.
allright, i read his article fist then yours. he walks the line between supporting bm players and calling them out at first, then just completely steps over and calls out their spec choice.
“So let’s right now throw out the argument of “I should be able to raid in whatever spec I want” – whatever he says after this point is moot, he has just said that you can only raid in top spec/specs (tip for people out there raid =/= top potential dps).
“it’s pretty remarkable that we have two viable raiding specs now in MM and SV” yea i know it is in the same section as the other quote, but this just highlights that he doesnt believe that its raid viable. (raid viable means the raid downs the boss)
should someone trying for server firsts go bm … probably not if their guild is a hardcore raiding guild. For the most people that play (and read wow.com), they are not in a hardcore raiding guild. Most people are in a casual guild, and not competing for first kills. BMvsMMvsSV doesnt matter as much in those runs
to preach to those people that they should only spec the absolute max dps spec (even though they will never be in a situation where it will matter), is what annoys me. go ahead and say that philosophy at elitist jerks or another site tailored for min/maxers, but dont preach it on a site focused on the addicted casual.
/end rant
(also brig, you need to stock up on troll repellent again)
I agree. And like I’ve mentioned now a couple of times, Frost and I have traded emails today to get a better understanding of where the both of us are coming from. (I still find it amazing that my little rant somehow found it’s way over to Frost. lol anyways I digress…)
Just as an FYI. In my emails with Frost today it’s became very clear that though he and I don’t agree on approach or the “How.” We both did agree that each hunter should strive to play the best game they can. The difference is I say “Play the best game you can with your spec.” Fros is saying “Play the best game you can with your class.”
One encourages you to play whatever spec you prefer, the other whatever spec gives you the advantage overall.
Brig, thank you so much for writing this article.
I’m glad you liked it.
I’ve finished my final thoughts if you want to check it out, Frostheim vs Brigwyn-part-deux…. I think it wraps this up pretty cleanly. 
One last thought on viability from a priest’s perspective:
During the days of Molten Core, Ahn’Qiraj, etc., if you were a Shadow Priest, your likelihood of getting into a raid was slim-to-none, because they couldn’t compete as a DPS class for either progression raiding or casual raiding (which didn’t really exist at the time). This would mean that, at the time, Shadow was not a viable raiding spec.
While BM may not output optimal DPS, and as such might anyone with a BM main-spec may be turned down for a spot in a “progression” raiding guild, I know of few casual raiding groups which would deny a BM hunter a spot simply because of their spec. Thus, it still exists as a viable option for raiding, just perhaps not viable for “progression”.
Heya Spaz!
I see your point. And I know I’m being nitpicky (But hey my blog I get to right?
) but I think we should really stop using the word viable in those cases.
Really, it is viable, it’s just either not accepted because of bias or prejiduce.
And yes, you’re right. There are many (probably 99.999% really. Okay, I’ll admit it. I’m homing there’s at least 1?) that will always require their hunters be top dog dps.
I think the focus on viable vs. optimal is silly.
If the rest of the players in my raid group are over performing, I could stand in a corner and do nothing for an encounter and we could still kill the boss. That would be a viable strategy. A stupid one, but viable nonetheless. Raiding, whether casual or serious, shouldn’t be about doing the bare minimum needed to kill a boss. Raiding is a team sport. Doing less than your potential puts unnecessary stress on the rest of the raid.
If people are reading columns like Scattered Shots, or other hunter blogs, I assume they are looking for help to make themselves as effective as possible, not just get tips on how to be sufficient.
This actually reminded me of something my guild experienced lately, went in to do the weekly raid quest on Patchwerk, and a bunch of people ended up with the [Make Quick Werk Of Him (25 player)] achievement…when we only had 17 people in the group.
Go marksmen. I dare ya.
Huh? Why do you dare me? I’ve been Marks in the past and would raid Marks again. Not really sure why you say that but um.. Okay.
Because I don’t think you would. I raided BM up until probably last November. I was like you and loved BM, I still do. Honestly if BM didn’t do so much less overall DPS I would still be one for the simplistic rotation which would allow me to really get to watch the fight and bring my devilsaur back.
I regress. More to the point is I think if you went to marks or even survival and spent a good month learning it the DPS increase would make you feel guilty going back to BM. Variety is the spice of life, no? Just a friendly challenge. “Don’t knock it ’til you try it” comes to mind.
(Also “in the past” can mean a great deal with how quickly Blizzard can change a class and its subsequent specs.)
Funny you say that. I had actually started out Marks because I liked the burst damage part of the class. Pretty much the same reason people like it today. And I was Marks all the way up until the end of BC when I started raiding then.
When it came to Wrath I realized I had a choice to make. Run the “correct” spec but suffer due to machine performance. Or stay with a more forgiving spec and deliver consistent DPS. I chose to stay.
But in reality I’m probably a lot closer to the Marks playstyle than you think. But that won’t ever deter me from standing up for the spec that’s just getting beat on for no reason.
Back in BC I made the same defense for Marks even though BM was truly the top dog. It was viable, just not optimal then. Of course I admitedly didn’t have near the understanding to game mechanics I hope I do now.
Either way I still fee it’s still wrong to trash a spec just because it’s not the highest possible DPS of it’s class.
Sorry Brig, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree with you here.
I agree with Frost, to a point. You can raid as BM, sure. And if I saw a BM hunter in Nax, Sarth’s lair, or VoA, I’d have no issue with it. Heck, I’d cheer ‘em on. Even an over-geared BM in Ulduar, eh, why not. BUT. Once you hit ToC, and much more so, ICC, you have to start thinking responsibly. At their core, Hunters are a DPS class. It’s our job to kill things as fast as possible. You have 9-24 other people relying on you for that.
There’s the argument “Its my $15, I’ll do what I want,” however, that attitude doesn’t take into account 3 things:
1. It may be your $15, but its your fellow raiders $135-$360 dollars you’re affecting by not fulfilling your classes true potential.
2. By choosing to do less than optimal DPS, you may be contributing to your team wiping more. Just can’t quite get festergut ? Hrm…. what if you were doing 20-30% more DPS ? Maybe then you could beat him.
3. It’s your raid leader who ultimately decides if you come. You can say BM is viable all you want, but most progression raid leaders know better. They want the best DPS they can get. If you refuse to switch from BM, you’re not it.
Saying that someone should be BM because they’re better at the spec is just ridiculous. I mean, that attitude is just pure laziness. The only reason you could do better DPS as BM over Marks or Survival is because you haven’t learned to play as those specs. If you take the time to learn how to play them, you’ll put out better numbers than you will as BM. Period. Raiding is hard work. Some of that work is learning how to get the best DPS from your class.
You can play word games with it all you want, but 1/5 to about 1/3 less DPS is not just a difference of what is “optimal” and what isn’t. Its HUGE. If I’m putting out 8k DPS on fester gut as MM or Surv, that means that I’ll instead be putting out about 6400-5600 as BM. I can’t think of a single reason why I should be selfish and gimp my DPS by 1600 to 2400. Thats WAY worse than not flasking, gemming with greens and not getting food buffs.
When I joined my current guild, at the beginning of Wrath, I was BM. We were clearing Naxx, and life was good. Then “Great Hunter Nerf 3.0.8″ came out, and that was the final straw, and I switched specs. Up to that point, I had been raiding as BM through Vanilla and BC (yea, I had some awesome friends who put up with me as BM in Vanilla, I won’t lie, lol). I loved BM and my big red kitty ( I used Humar as my pet), but I switched. And when I switched, I hated survival. Still do actually. I really hate playing as survival >.<
My Guild never asked me to switch though. I did it because I wanted to perform as best as I could, because that's my interpretation of my job as a raider.
Additionally, blue support for the view of BM's lack of raid viability does not help it's case either.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22050165921&postId=220463224683&sid=1#12
Bornakk
Blizzard Poster
12. Re: Any plans to buff Spirit Beasts? 12/21/2009 04:55:25 PM PST
Q u o t e:
"wanna make some controversial buffs to the BM tree maybe? Since it is pointless in real raiding."
It may not be great for raiding but is still good for leveling while both Marks and Surv are competitive for raiding. I wouldn't expect any big changes for now.
Ultimately, it boils down to choice. You can choose to not see cutting edge content (unless you have a guild who are willing to carry you) and raid about 2 tiers behind what is current as BM, and enjoy your spec. Or you can choose the challenge of pushing your class to the bleeding edge, and see just how much DPS you can do. Personally, I respect my fellow guild mates and their time way too much to not do the very best I can, even if that means stepping out of my comfort zone. Truth be told, they expect nothing less of me either.
I appreciate your comments. But I find it that I failed to communicate my point clearly enough or you didn’t read the entire post.
It’s not about carrying, gimping or laziness. Not to be disrespectful, but these are your own personal views and preferences.
Also, the forum post is actually talking about the DPS discrepancy between the specs and how progression raiding guilds will only take the top raiding specs. This is what they’re talking about in this post. There are many other related posts by Ghostcrawler that directly talks about “contribution” and how it is very difficult to prove that all three specs don’t contribute to a raid.
Anyways, I do encourage you to read my follow-up post, Frostheim vs Brigwyn-part-deux….
Feel free to disagree. And if you feel that my premise and conclusions are wrong, I’m all ears to a reasonable discussion.