So I’m pretty sure you all know about Thursday’s meltdown on Twitter about what Frostheim and a lot of the Elitists responses said on the last Scattered Shots post.
That lead to an email from Frost trying to figure out what had my beard in a knot. Followed by a wall of text post that attempted to explain how I felt his post missed it’s intended mark.
Well that lead to a few emails back and forth, lots of comments from you guys, and then finally this follow-up post by Frost on Warcraft Hunter’s Union.
Now, I have to admit I think Frost did a better job explaining his point. But I still disagree with his premise that choosing to play a specific spec is harmful to a raid. In the end I think we can all agree that it boils down to a playstyle decision. And with 11.5 million players, no one can state that there’s only one way we should play our class.
Beast Mastery is Viable and Can Raid Endgame
I think it’s important that before we get to the points were we disagree, that it’s important to recognize there are some points we do agree on.
First, Frost does agree that players can raid specced as Beast Mastery. Matter of fact he goes so far to say that BM Hunters can pass the Festergut DPS test. (Which is about 7.6k DPS/DPSer according to Frostheim)
So no problems there. We all agree that Beast Mastery is a viable raid spec.
Always Give 100%
The other area that we both agree on is how much effort each player should give it their all and bring their “A” game to the raid. This means no slacking off on gems, enchants, buff food, etc… If you’re raiding, you owe it to the raid to always do the absolute best that you can.
Success means never settle for “Good Enough!”
Now here’s were it gets a bit dicey.
See, to Frost there’s only two philosophies when it comes to DPS, “Enough is plenty” and the “Always strive for more”.
This just seems too limiting. Because honestly? I’m always striving for more, because I don’t want to just settle for “enough.” Now before you start screaming about how I kept saying how it doesn’t matter as long as the boss goes down, I still believe that. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter. With that being said it doesn’t mean you should just settle though.
What it does mean, is “Knowing the minimum DPS requirements is only the beginning. Everyone should ALWAYS strive to do better than bare minimum.” (I’m bolding this because I want to be clear I’m not promoting the “Meh, I can slide by” mentality.)
The “It’s not just your $15/mo” argument
Now before I get off this topic there’s an argument (It needs to be noted that this wasn’t presented by Frostheim but others.) that’s always thrown around about one’s playstyle impacting another.
More specifically the “It’s not only your $15/month but it’s actually 24x$15 or 9x$15/month ($360/$135 per month) impacted.” This is a pure and simple fallacy. I’ll even admit, I’ve been guilty of arguing the same exact point in the past. But over time I’ve just come to the conclusiong it’s just wrong. This argument just doesn’t apply in this case. Here’s why.
The BM Hunter is pulling over 7,600k DPS and you’re able to pass the Festergut DPS check! This means they’re not gimping the raid. Could they do more if they changed spec? Maybe Maybe not. But either way they’re not the individual cause of the raid failing to down the boss, it’s ultimately a team failure, not an individual one.
Need a clearer way of puting it? If you have a Beast Master Hunter in your raid is doing an estimated 8k DPS. Though they’re not at the top, more than likely they’re somewhere in the middle. That being said it means that there are at least 405 ot probably more of a raid composition/strategy thing than a specific BM Hunter issue.
Finally, just like there is no I in T.E.A.M, neither is there is no Y.O.U in T.E.A.M. It might be good to remember that fact as well.
Playing Beast Mastery Does Not Cause a 20-30% DPS Loss
Again this is another falacy. You’re not really losing 20-30% DPS Playing Beast Mastery.
See to have a loss or to lose something means you had to have it to begin with. In this case a Beast Mastery Hunter doesn’t have the same DPS potential a Marksman Hunter has. If it’s not there, you just can’t lose it.
Here, let me try to give an example in real world terms.
You start a new sales job. They also pay you bonuses based on the number of units sold and at the end of each month they give away a company car.
However, you’re required to generate $8,000/month in sales to maintain your position and qualify for the car at the end of the month. And they know that $8k is the minimum and that it’s realistic to sale $11.5k/month if you’re willing to work 6am-3pm instead of 8am-5pm so you can reach the East Coast.
So the first month comes in. You sold 8 units for $1,000 each earning your $8,000 minimum. So they paid you a small bonus. All good.
However, another salesman, “Bob”, earned sold 10 units earning $11.5k and got extra bonuses because of it.
Your boss doesn’t come to you and say, “Brig! WTH! You made us lose the quarther by 30% because you wouldn’t change your hours! Change your hours or your fired!” Why? Because you hit your goal and didn’t cause a loss.
Instead they will typically do one of the following:
- Encourage and help you to make small but significant changes so you can sell more. (If they’re nice and like you.)
- Change you’re targets so you’re forced to make a personal choice to change or leave. (More than likely.)
- Replace you with someone that can meet the $11.5k/month target. (Typically if spots are limited and you’re not able or willing to make the required changes.)
Now, if you only sold 5.6 units earning $5.6k. That would be a 30% loss. If you’re lucky they might only insist you make the required changes to your hours but more than likely they’d probably end up firing you.
Do you see the correlation between my example and a BM vs. MM raider? I hope so.
Preferrences vs. Requirements
Please understand. I’m not promoting minimums as something we should ever strive for and settle with. I’m stating that the minimums need to be understood as requirements.
To help illustrate this, in my previous example I used the concept of monthly bonuses and free cars. In a raid it’s getting more badges, better gear, Achievements, and ultimately getting the entire raid their drakes and pets.
As a raid leader or just a player that raids you need to decide what it is you want out of the game and pursue it. If you’re really want to focus on the gear, achievements, and stuff. Then you probably will want to seek out like minded players. This way you’ll have the most enjoyable time.
However, I stress that this is a preference. It’s not a requirement.
Requirements are what is absolutely necessary. Preferences are those things we stack on top of requirements to help dress it up and make it more to our own personal liking.
Because of this, preferences are subjective and often times personal. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t many like minded people that prefer the same things. (Seriousl, what else can explain people actually choosing to play Warlocks over Hunters. We all know even a BM Hunter is far superior to any Warlock. Amiright?)
What did you say? TLDR
So in case you decided you really didn’t want to read this long rambling post. Here’s the highlights.
- Beast Mastery is a viable spec for endgame raiding.
- Beast Mastery hunters are capable of doing more than the required 7,600 DPS required on the Festergut DPS check.
- Raiding requires you to be part of a TEAM.
- There is no I or Y.O.U. in T.E.A.M.
- You can’t lose what you don’t have.
- You can’t compare Marks DPS to BM DPS and call it a loss.
- All Hunters including Beast Mastery ones should always give 100%.
- All Hunters including Beast Mastery should always look for areas to improve.
- Minimums may be Requirements BUT we should always strive to do more than just what’s required.
- No one should ever try and enforce their individual preferences on the general population as requirements. (This applies to hardcore progressives as well as casuals.)
- If you’re preferences are that important, play with people with similar preferences.
- Stop insisting that everyone should believe, like, or feel the same way you do. (Okay, this is a repeat, but I feel strongly about it.)
All of that being said I know that this is only my opinion. But I do think if we all can at least agree to my final 2 points, we’d all find this game much more enjoyable.
Eddie “Brigwyn” Carrington is often known as being that crazy dwarf on Twitter.
He's also a blogger, podcaster (Hosts Brigwyn's Corner, Co-host of Everything Blah! and of course Redneck Geek and Cajun Gamer with his good friend Andy "Daewin" Dino. 
Brigwyn, I respectfully disagree with your analogy, but only on one point. I, personally, consider the delta between BM and MM/SV to be an opportunity cost. It’s a loss (to me) because you are choosing to play a spec that has a lower maximum capability without an attendant increase in raid utility. It is a perfectly viable choice, and if the raid is wiping ONLY because of this choice, clearly that raid is too close to the margins for the choice to be ok. But, that doesn’t change that it’s a self-limiting decision.
I can agree with you that it’s an opportunity cost. I just think we disagree on who’s the one the paying the cost.
You say that the BM Hunter is causing you a personal loss. However, I would argue that they aren’t. If you’re downing the bosses then there isn’t really any loss. Now if the failed raid is due to a significant DPS deficiency then I could agree with you.
But at this time you’re claiming the lost opportunity is because an increase in DPS would equal a reduction in raid time allowing you more time to do something else. If this is the case? Then yes, I agree a player raiding as BM is causing an opportunity loss.
The question then becomes, is the value of that lost opportunity greater than the value you got from raiding with the player that’s BM?
I hope so. Because if not, then I’d have to question why you’re playing with them to begin with. But then again, that’s just me.
Thanks for the comment. I like the idea of applying opportunity cost to raiding. It really helps cut to the quick of the issue being more about the quality and value you see in the player rather than a pure DPS numbers comparison.
Yet to see a Marksman hunter with the same gear that did more DPS than me, so even if I’m “30% behind” them, they ain’t reachin’ their potential
Anecdotal, I know, but I say this because it leads me to the following point…
There’s a clear logical hole in your argument (Frost), where it’s assumed that by simply rolling Marksman, you’re automatically guaranteed to maximize your potential DPS. Where are all these supposedly amazing MM hunters that score 30% greater DPS? What do they need to do in order to accomplish this? Roughly 90% of your total damage is shifted to you, the player, thus creating a greater potential for user error (and DPS loss). Couple that with the average level of skill within the WoW player base (especially the hunter community) and I’d even argue that MM is a WORSE choice than Beast Mastery due to the potential for “lost” DPS.
I think I’d like to see everyone start screenshotting their boss fights for 10 and 25 man ICCs with Damage Done/DPS rather than theorycrafting and discussing what a class’s potential is. I’m not convinced of this supposed 30% “loss” because I simply haven’t seen it. Ever.
Though I do agree with that switching specs doesn’t guarentee an immediate DPS increase. I would have to argue that a BM Hunter playing an equally geared Marks hunter with equal knowledge and skill should see an increase in DPS.
However, as you point out this is rarely the case. Nowadays youy see lesser skilled Hunters feeling forced into playing a spec that is a lot less forgiving. Because of this, there’s a great many MM and SV Hunters out there that just aren’t able to play the spec to it’s potential.
And you’re also correct, that if these same Hunters played BM (a more fogiving technical spec) they probably would see a DPS increase.
All of this being said, it’s hard to argue that the increased DPS potential of Marks over SV hasn’t been proven in the real world.
Oh! One final thing. Though we can gather trends and data from log reports, in actuality all of our data gathering will only prove that both are right. There are BM Hunters > MM and there are MM > BM.
lol
With that being proven, then this argument really is just that, an argument.
Here’s another point that really needs to be remembered; The comparison of BM to MM to SV would have to made with static conditions i.e. just standing and shooting at the same target without interrupts and everyone doing a ‘perfect’ rotation. How many boss fights especially in ICC allow you to just stand in one spot and ignore adds (bone spikes etc.) and shoot. Your dps is going to fluctuate sometimes dramatically when you’re switching targets and doing what hunters do, assisting with multiple spawns. I’ll take a guy in any hunter spec who can shoot and move, switch to proper targets fast and HELP the raid in downing the boss and protecting healers over an armor penned MM huntard who can only hit those high numbers when he can stand still. We’re gonna start seeing changes back to chain trapping and hit and move strategies very soon imo.
Actually, the original post that spawned all this debate used ICC fight statistics from wowmeteronline.com. Check out the article at wow.com. Here’s the link:
http://www.wow.com/2010/02/11/scattered-shots-can-beast-mastery-raid/
Heya Killer – I have to agree with Necrie on this one. The data used for these examples have all been pulled from ICC log reports.
However, the fight that is being used as an example is Festergut which is a DPS check in ICC. So if BM succeeds in performing then they’re doing enough DPS to continue. This is the point that the “elitist” are claiming is required when it’s proven not to be, that it’s just their preference.
But that’s just the data. What you’re saying is absolutely correct. As Blizzard designs more fights requiring concentration on other things than just target something, stay out of the goo and pew-pew the focus should shift away from the pure numbers and on individual performance. Sometimes that means being able to keep bloodbeasts and bonespikes at bay.
Yeah I read that wow.com post before I commented, and I understand MM and SV just baseline can out dps BM right now (thanks nerf bat) now understand I’m not just agreeing with Brig just to agree cause I’m a fan. Heck I’ll armory myself (puts on tinfoil hat) http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Anetheron&cn=Hellzfury
I run MM most of the time, but my second spec is BM and I run it just for the “F U N” of it. Isn’t that what we’re forgetting sometimes that we should be having fun, after all it’s a game. Now I’m not just running around like a goof thinking wheeee I’m havin fun, I’ll work my ass off in a raid and I won’t run BM in ICC only cause I need those MM dps numbers to help out my guild and team. But I have run many 5man pugs for my daily frost emblems in BM and still get good enough dps to down boss, I’ve had pugs comment, “wow you’re runnin BM and getting that kind of dps?!”, to this I say thanks but in my mind I’m thinking what Brig and Nassira have said a million times, there’s a big difference in playing your class and knowing it and playing it well. Hence my previous comment; I’ll take a guy in any hunter spec who can shoot and move, switch to proper targets fast and HELP the raid in downing the boss and protecting healers over an armor penned MM huntard who can only hit those high numbers when he can stand still.
Ok I’m ranting now so that’s it.
Hey Brig
I would just like to reference to your previous post on the topic when you compared the different forms of raiding to different levels of a sports team (and the different levels of commitment needed for each)
I would just like to remind everyone that Frost’s philosophy was his philosophy for progression raiding (in Brig’s comparison semi-pro/pro sports) and people in progression raiding teams (where his game is aimed at and the goals he sets out for his own raid and raid team) This was stated as the base of his philosophy. I agree with Frost’s view on progression raiding, but he should not have rolled that philosophy into that post, perhaps a follow up post or more appropriately a post on the WHU (not as high profile as Scattered Shots). Even damn ret pallies are ragging on BM hunters now on my server and that is BS.
The best comments about this whole BM hunter debacle Frost managed to stir up has been stated by you and your commenters “Play with like minded people, people with the same goals” Never be swayed by the pressures of people who play a differnt game.
Did you mean The Elitists as some dude or my name? That confused me a bit.
Hehe. Not The Elitists! The “1337″ elitists.
Sorry Tristan, that was my bad.
I really didn’t mean to sound like I was calling you out.
To expand on your analogy, Brig, if you’re expected or required to bring in $8,000 and you instead bring in $9,500, you’ve not only met your expectations, you’ve exceeded them. And if you do it regularly, you’re certainly not hindering your group – you’re leading them. You may not pulling the numbers that the big guys who work the prime hours are, but guess what – you don’t HAVE to. You aren’t required to, you most likely aren’t being asked to (because your boss, unless he’s a derfwad, has the sense to look at factors like peak hours), and no boss with any sense at all would actually be displeased with an employee who’s exceeding expectations.
Also, Cereal Killer brings up another excellent point: hunters can shine on one fight and absolutely bomb the next, depending on a factor as simple as how much movement they have to deal with. Before Ulduar was released, when T7 was still hard, I was doing 3900dps (as beast mastery) on Patchwerk – then I turned around and did a whopping 1500 in the same spec on our first Sarth-3D kill. The difference? Patchwerk is stationary and Sarth-3D involves void zones, lava walls, target switching, and a lot of pet death. (Not to mention I was subbed in when a raider more familiar with the fight DCd, so I was a Sarthnoob and I wasn’t entirely prepared – but honestly, given the other factors, I’d have been lucky to sustain 2k.) Spreadsheets will tell you what you can expect to do under ideal circumstances, but when you go out in the real world with all its crazy variations – for example, how many guilds regularly run with 3-4 hunters in a *ten-man*? – things are a lot less cut-and-dry.
High expectations are great. Wanting to squeeze the most DPS out of your class is great. The most satisfying part of raiding casually is competing with myself, trying to beat my own numbers, and seeing how much DPS I can force out of a spec that isn’t optimal. I’m lucky enough to be in a group where every raider gives 110%. And as I’ve stated elsewhere, I’d make the switch if I went hardcore again. What it seems to come down to, though, is the following:
~ Where you are in the game
~ What your goals are in the game
~ What your group’s goals are (I can’t stress the important of playing with people who share the same goals and the same mindset, especially in raiding)
~ Whether you are doing right by your group and enabling them to reach the common goals
I can say with absolute certainty that I’m doing my part within my group. Would I make it in the “big leagues” with my current spec and playstyle? No, but that’s why I’m not in the big leagues.
The folks I run with trust me to pull my weight, I’ve yet to let them down, my raid leader is happy with my performance, and that’s more than good enough for me!
*ends novel, steps off soapbox, skitters away* :3
“~ What your group’s goals are (I can’t stress enough the
importantimportance of playing with people who share the same goals and the same mindset, especially in raiding)”There we go. ^^;
You are so right when you said,
When you can do a fistpump and shout, “HECK YEAH!! Who dat! W-H-O DAT!” there isn’t anything better!
“Beast Mastery is Viable and Can Raid Endgame”
This is your basic message, right ? Just so we’re clear ? If I were to distill the essence of your point of this debate, this is what you’re trying to say ? Endgame includes all of ICC after all, even the Lich King. I wouldn’t want you to think I hadn’t read your post, lol, so mind, this is what the core of my response is directed at. If I’ve misunderstood your point, then my response is pointless *chuckle*
To begin with, you can raid as any spec you wish. If you want to raid as Surv, you can. If MM is your thing, kudos. If BM floats your boat, more power to you. That being said, my interpretation of Frost’s message, and I believe that I am correct in my understanding, is that BM is the least viable raiding spec for Endgame Content. Very possibly by a significant amount, based primarily on the average potential DPS, with gear and skill not being a factor. Specifically, Ice Crown Citadel at this time. Moreover, Frost is saying that BM’s viability is low enough, that you should not consider raiding as it in ICC. Again, this concept is core to my response.
Personally, I believe that a sufficiently geared and skilled BM Hunter should be able to bring sufficient DPS to previous raid content. The newer the content, however, the more that will be required of the player, however. I.E. Someone doing fine in Naxx raids *may* not do as well in Ulduar, as it takes more skill to clear. Gear will also affect your raid content viability, but that is true regardless of what spec you play as, so lets do our best to leave gear out of the debate. Gear plays a factor, but is not the core issue.
If we agree on this, then the only difference that comes into play for your damage potential is your spec and your skill as a hunter
Your Spec sets the base line for your damage, and your skill determines how close you can come to fulfilling your Spec’s potential. To draw that into your first point, of BM and the Festergut gear-check, the numbers you’re quoting from are from the top 20 DPS reports on WoWMeterOnline. For those who don’t know, the Top 20 records for Festergut as BM range from about 7.6k to 10k. If 7.6k is the needed average, then that means the top 20 people playing BM hunters should have no issue. So. Are you, the reader, in the top 20 ? I’m sure many in the the scattered shots audience aren’t. I know I’m not. What those numbers show me is that BM can barely scrape by, when used by highly skilled (and possibly geared) individuals. So, if you’re putting out 7.6k DPS as BM on Festergut, keep raiding BM I say ! The likelihood is however, that the vast majority of players are not at that point yet. Yes, BM indeed has the potential to do it, but how many players out there will be able to live up to that potential ?
Moving on, I got a bit confused. You said:
“Knowing the minimum DPS requirements is only the beginning. Everyone should ALWAYS strive to do better than bare minimum.”
If I know that my potential DPS is higher by choosing to play as a different spec, even if it means taking the time to learn a new spec, and I choose not to, then I’m not striving to better myself and what I contribute to the raid. I may be making more than a minimal contribution to the raid, but I’d also not be giving my best to it either. So a major point between you and Frost seems to be where to draw the line of what is an acceptable contribution to the raid, and what isn’t. If I were to take my interpretation of these viewpoints to an extreme level, Frost’s would be along the lines of “Give 110% Oorah !” And your’s would be more along the lines of “Hey, you’re not dragging us down, keep up the good work, can you give a little more if possible ?”
Both of these are acceptable philosophies in raiding. However, they will have very different results in what your raid will accomplish. These very philosophies define the difference between hardcore and casual raiders.
So, in this, there will be no convincing you, unless someone can show empirical data that BM is not able to achieve the damage needed. That won’t happen, as there are people who’ve already shown that it has the potential.
However, I ask you this: Does the average player have the gear, skill, and guild backing to meet or beat what the top 20 hunters in the world have done ? I think its safe to say no, they don’t. So the question becomes how far short do they fall of where they need to be? That will tell you if they should be raiding as BM or not.
“The “It’s not just your $15/mo” argument”
Ok, I made this comment, but I guess my point wasn’t clear enough. If you’re not putting out the damage your raid needs from you, you’re not only wasting people’s money, you’re wasting their TIME, which in truth, is far more valuable. Again, this point is being made assuming that you’re not contributing at least the bare minimum of what is needed of you because you’ve chosen a certain spec. If you are putting out what is needed, this doesn’t apply to you. If you’re able to do this as BM, then you’re an amazing player ! You’re really pulling out almost all that you can from the spec. Welcome to the top 20-50 BM hunters in the world. If you aren’t… well… that should be fairly self explanatory then.
“Playing Beast Mastery Does Not Cause a 20-30% DPS Loss. Again this is another falacy. You’re not really losing 20-30% DPS Playing Beast Mastery.”
This statement is both right and wrong. In theory, the average player may or may not be loosing 20 to 30% damage. However, they ARE still doing less damage as BM then if they played at an equal skill level as MM or Surv. How much depends on the player.
“See to have a loss or to lose something means you had to have it to begin with. In this case a Beast Mastery Hunter doesn’t have the same DPS potential a Marksman Hunter has. If it’s not there, you just can’t lose it.”
Wrong wrong wrong.
This argument takes a point of view that makes devs like Ghostcrawler /facedesk.
You are treating BM as a class, and not as a spec. It would be a completely different story if you had to go re-roll and level back up to 80 to play as MM or Surv instead, but thats not the case. A trip to a town with a trainer, and BAM ! you can work on your potential DPS as MM or Surv instead. All hunters have access to all three talent trees, and therefor have access to whatever spec will draw the most potential from their gear and skill. It is absolutely relevant to compare DPS potential of different specs because we have access to all three trees.
Your job analogy is flawed as well. You have no control over bob’s sales, only your own. This analogy may be more accurate.
You go job hunting and apply to several companies, all of whom you’re qualified to work for, though some may require some onsite training, while others you can start work without any additional training. You receive 3 offers: one for 8k/mo that requires no additional training, one for 12k/mo that requires some training, and one for 14k/mo that requires training and certification that you’re capable of getting. Which job do you go for ? Thats your choice. Two require some additional work on your part, for the reward of a better paycheck, and the easiest requires nothing beyond what you already have.
As a hunter, we have access to all 3 trees. 2 require more skill to play, but the reward is higher DPS and a more secure position in a raid. More secure because the majority of raids don’t raid to go in and explore the zone. They raid to kill things and take their cool stuff. Therefor, the more damage you put out, the more likely you’ll get to stay if a choice needs to be made because there’s too many people to bring.
Preferrences vs. Requirements
I agree with you here whole heartedly. Most likely, casual raiders will gravitate to casual guilds. Hardcore raiders will gravitate to progression guilds. This is a good thing ! It means that the average player will get to chose the playstyle that they want, be it what they chose because they enjoy it, or what they chose because they want to do the very best they can for their class. This also means that its going to be a while before the casual player will be able to see the Lich King in person, or even drop putricide, blood queen, or sindragosa for that matter. Choosing to not push yourself for the most your class can give typically means choosing to not get access to the latest content, gear, etc. Why ? because if you’re making that choice, and no one as an issue with it, then likely, you’re with others who will also be making that choice as well. That means that you’ll be able to see some of the content, just not all of it.
So what you have to ask yourself is: Where do my priorities lay ?
TLDR Summery
- My understanding of Brigwyn’s ultimate point is: “Beast Mastery is Viable and Can Raid Endgame,” and I disagree with him.
- The best BM hunters may pass the Festergut DPS check. You need to ask yourself how likely is it that you will as BM.
- Raiding is a Team sport. Teams can have 2 philosophies.
— Lets have fun
— Lets win
- Which one do you want to be a part of ?
- Respecting your fellow raider’s time may well mean changing your play style, IF you’re not putting out what the raid needs.
- We play a HUNTER, not a Beast Master, Marksman, ect. We Play a class, not a spec. We have equal access to all three trees, so choosing to play a tree with significantly less potential DPS is still a DPS loss.
- Ultimately, casual raiders will gravitate to casual guilds. Hardcore raiders will gravitate to hardcore guilds. Where do you want to be ? Are you willing to do what it takes to get there ?
- If you’re raiding casually, raid as what ever spec you want and your raid will accept.
- If you want to do hardcore raiding, you may need to change your spec to MM or Surv, for the good of the raid.
Necrie –
I’m sorry but I’ve read this twice and there’s really more errors and fallacies than I care to address again.
Yes, you read my post but I must have again failed to express my point clear enough. I’m not sure trying a third time here will end with any better results.
So here’s what I’m goinThe most satisfying part of raiding casually is competing with myself, trying to beat my own numbers, and seeing how much DPS I can force out of a spec that isn’t optimal.
But I do want to address a few things.
1. You can have fun and win so that’s a false argument.
2. Playing a Class vs. a spec
You are absolutely right, hunters do ahve access to all three specs. But what you are missing is the fact that I’m not clamoring for BM to have more DPS. I’m not the one causing Ghostcrawler to pull what little of his his he has left out. It’s players like you that insist on forcing other players that just dont’ like playing a speec like Marks that requires more technical precision or survival that is reliant on controled procs.
Beast Mastery is about the partnership between Hunter and Pet. BM Hunters have an affinity for their pets that’s just not there with the other specs. And that’s perfectly acceptable. Right now we trade off DPS for the extra fun of having a pet that will get all big and red and tear into a warlock causing them to wet their skirts and run back home to their succubus where they belong.
In all seriousness though. You’re not getting the point. Though I think it would be great that BM was more in line with the other 2 specs. I’m not pushing for it or even advocating for that in this post.
I’m actually saying to players like yourself, take a look at what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is you prefer to play with players like yourself. Ones that feel the only way to play is to achieve quick rewards and top the meters.
Beast Master hunters aren’t interested in topping the meter, if they were they wouldn’t still be Beast. (Well except for some like Hesson Iguess. lol)
The’re wanting the opportunity to see endgame content at some point. And I really thing Blizz has done a great job making sure this can happen. Even if it’s to the chagrine of progression raiders that have lost their ability to strut out in front of the bank in their
Finally, your com your statement about that BM Hunters asking themselves if they’re equal in skill to the Top 20% listed in WWS? I’d have to ask the same of all the MM and SV Hunters that haven’t stepped foot into ICC yet. Are they? Do they have the gear? probably not because if they did they’d already be doing it. Right?
The reality of the situation is by the time they’re ready, they should be. And if they’re not. They’ll wash out on Festergut. That’s why he’s a DPS check.
Sorry mate, but like I said earliier. Your comment is full of fallacies, half truths and really nothing more than a thinly veiled trolling post propogating an elitist min/max philosophy that is rapidly becoming outdated with each and every patch from Blizzard.
Starting off with the end first.
“Sorry mate, but like I said earliier. Your comment is full of fallacies, half truths and really nothing more than a thinly veiled trolling post propogating an elitist min/max philosophy that is rapidly becoming outdated with each and every patch from Blizzard.”
Ok…..
Thanks for the insult and slap to the face Brig. Especially after encouraging me to debate the topic with you in your response to my original post. I realize this is your blog, and respect that. I have a lot of respect for you and Daewin and listen, usually with great glee, to your podcast weekly. I’ve even tuned in for it live on occasion. That is why I work very hard to present my side as logically and civilly as I can given the confines of the discussion. I am not promoting an elitist philosophy, but rather, a selfless philosophy, that hunters think of their raids needs before their own desires. I am not trolling (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling), I am trying to have a logical discussion or debate on one talent tree’s endgame potential versus two others.
Finally, I have yet to resort to name calling or insults, but to each their own I suppose.
“I’m sorry but I’ve read this twice and there’s really more errors and fallacies than I care to address again.”
Again ? Fallacies and errors are not the same thing as differing opinions Brig. If you’re going to say something like this, at least have the decency of backing yourself up, and showing me why I’m wrong logically, not with opinions and heresy. Saying to someone “You’re wrong !” without telling them why they’re wrong or what they’re wrong about is really quite pointless. The person won’t learn from it. If you won’t even take the time to explain why I’m wrong, you could at least do the courtesy of pointing out what items I’m wrong about, and let me try to figure out why I’m wrong on my own.
I made sure to address each of the major points in your post in a logical manner. You have chosen to respond to logical thinking, empirical data and established facts with subjective opinion and emotion (and not in a very organized manner >.<). Telling someone "You're wrong !" without backing it up does not make you right.
For example, you cited that BM was ok because it could meet and beat the DPS check on Festergut. You based this assertion on the records of the top 20 best encounters of the BM spec, where the half of the players in the list was just barely surpassing the DPS requirement of the fight. This isn't a logical argument, because not everyone is the very best. The majority are average. That means that the majority will not perform as well as the top 20 players usually by a significant margin. To put this in perspective, if the best 20 MM and Surv spec'd people are putting out 10-12k DPS, then it is reasonable to think that an average player would put out 7.5-8.5k DPS, which will usually be good enough to carry their weight in the encounter . If the very best BM players are putting out 8-9.5k DPS, it is not reasonable to assume the average BM hunter will be able to put out 7-8K DPS.
In summery, currently BM has the potential to pass the Festergut DPS check, but the majority of the player base will lack the gear and/or skill to do so. Only the most elite BM hunters currently can.
That is an example of logical thinking based on available evidence, by the way.
“Yes, you read my post but I must have again failed to express my point clear enough. I’m not sure trying a third time here will end with any better results.”
Ah, we failed to gain agreement on the point you were trying to make. Understandable. This can be a touchy subject for many varied people, and obviously is a fantastic forum for debate ! My understanding of your point was as follows: “Beast Mastery is Viable and Can Raid Endgame.” The definition of endgame is: the latest and most difficult raid content. (i.e. Toravon is not really endgame content, because though he is new, he’s also quite easy to kill)
Now, where did I misunderstand you ?
“So here’s what I’m goinThe most satisfying part of raiding casually is competing with myself, trying to beat my own numbers, and seeing how much DPS I can force out of a spec that isn’t optimal.”
Ah hah ! Here may be a core to our misunderstanding ! I think I may see the issue !
You’ve stated that you want to raid casually. Casual raiding and endgame raiding are mutually exclusive. They are two very different styles of raiding, with two very different goals.
Casual raiding does not strive to access endgame content in the same way that hardcore endgame raiders do. They may raid a few hours a week. They raid to have have fun, and thats fine ! This is a game after all, and you should above all else play to have fun. I’ve never said that there’s anything wrong with casual raiding, in spite of your allegations that I’m an elitist and feel every BM hunter should change. Contrary to this, I even stated that if a BM player was putting out what the raid needed from them, they were awesome and should keep up the amazing work !
On the other hand, endgame raiders are the hardcore raiders. They push the envelope of what is available, and push as hard as they can. That is what is fun for them. They may well spend 10 to 30 hours a week raiding between mains and alts on 10 and 25 man raids (not including farming and raid prep time either). They strive for every advantage they can get to improve their gameplay, be it farming up the best food for their class, spending ungodly amounts of gold on consumables, enchants and repairs, spending time researching the fights and discussing them prior to raid so that during raid time they can focus on the fight itself, and much much more.
Endgame raiding and casual raiding are two very different styles. There’s nothing wrong with being BM for casual raiding. For endgame raiding, however, it may become an issue. There’s nothing wrong with competing with yourself, in fact it is indeed a laudable thing to do, and is part of the core to self-improvement. The difference, however, is the casual raider is typically working to improve themselves, based on their personal performance. Endgame raiders not only compete against themselves, but must compete against the others of their class role as well. They have to, because if they don’t, their raid spot may well forfeit. This means they do not have the luxury of only worrying about how they alone are doing. They must focus on the raid as a whole. Thats why they must go to such great lengths to achieve their maximum potential, and can not afford to pass up any opportunity to seek improvement.
Minor Points included in follow up response, as the core of the issue seems to be above. Feel free to skip unless curious. I’ve included the responses for completeness sake, lest I be a hypocrite, though if I am correct in what I believe to be the core of Brig’s and my misunderstanding, they may no longer be relevant.
TLDR
Summery time ! YAY ! (Necrie, you write too much!!!)
- Raiding Casually as BM is just fine, in my opinion ! *Thumbs up*
- Raiding Hardcore as BM may or may not be a viable option, because your average hardcore endgame raider will be able to do more DPS as MM or Surv. Endgame raiders need to put the needs of the many above the needs of the few, or the one. (I’m such a geek)
— an addendum: If your 25-man raid somehow is missing both arcane mages AND Ret paladins, one of the hunters SHOULD consider swapping to BM. Ferocious Inspiration FTW !!! This situation is unlikely, but also possible.
- Brig wants to raid casually as BM
— I’m cool with it !
Again, these may be moot points, if Brig and I have (hopefully) come to an understanding. If so, please ignore them. However, I am posting them for completeness sake, lest I be a hypocrite. If I ask others to respond in full to me, I must first respond in full to them.
“2. Playing a Class vs. a spec
You are absolutely right, hunters do ahve access to all three specs. But what you are missing is the fact that I’m not clamoring for BM to have more DPS. I’m not the one causing Ghostcrawler to pull what little of his his he has left out. It’s players like you that insist on forcing other players that just dont’ like playing a speec like Marks that requires more technical precision or survival that is reliant on controled procs.”
I’ve said several times in my previous post if you as a player are able to put out what is required of you by the raid, then stick to BM. This is regardless of wether you are raiding casually or endgame. All I’ve asked is that if you choose to be BM, please be sure to consider the needs of the raid as well as yourself, and be sure you’re meeting them. If you are, awesome ! If not, you may want to find out how you can improve and do so.
“Beast Mastery is about the partnership between Hunter and Pet. BM Hunters have an affinity for their pets that’s just not there with the other specs. And that’s perfectly acceptable. Right now we trade off DPS for the extra fun of having a pet that will get all big and red and tear into a warlock causing them to wet their skirts and run back home to their succubus where they belong.”
While I think we can all agree that making ‘locks wet their skirts, run to their succubus’ waiting arms, and whine about the big bad red beastie and mean hunter is awesome, I fail to see what this has to do with endgame raiding, which is focuses on clearing the latest raid content as soon as possible and being among the first to get the nifty new shiny. Quite amusing though.
“In all seriousness though. You’re not getting the point. Though I think it would be great that BM was more in line with the other 2 specs. I’m not pushing for it or even advocating for that in this post.
I’m actually saying to players like yourself, take a look at what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is you prefer to play with players like yourself. Ones that feel the only way to play is to achieve quick rewards and top the meters.
Beast Master hunters aren’t interested in topping the meter, if they were they wouldn’t still be Beast. (Well except for some like Hesson Iguess. lol)”
When did I talk about topping the meters ? All I’ve talked about is putting out as much DPS as you can with the class, opening your mind beyond your comfort zone, considering alternatives that may (and statistically will) offer you better DPS. This goes back to Casual vrs. Endgame. BM is fine for casual raiding. Your statement is that BM is fine for endgame raiding. With all respect, it is you that seems to not get the point, as you are arguing in favor of Pro BM Casual Raiding, but are *saying* you’re debating Pro BM endgame raiding.
On a personal note, if BM was at least reasonably competitive with Marks and Surv, I’d go BM. say within about 500-1000 DPS or so. I miss my big red pets, and Loque and the Kurken are far too neglected in my stable :’(
“The’re wanting the opportunity to see endgame content at some point. And I really thing Blizz has done a great job making sure this can happen. Even if it’s to the chagrine of progression raiders that have lost their ability to strut out in front of the bank in their”
Bliz has worked on bringing BM back in line from when they nerfed it in 3.0.8, BUT, its still not in line with Survival and Marks. Bliz has also all but said that they don’t plan on doing anything further to make BM more raid viable till Cataclysm. If the ICC buffs raids will eventually get are good enough, then hopefully even the casual players may eventually be able to full clear ICC, plant the vacancy/For Sale sign out in front, and see the nifty cut scene. At that point, however, it will not really be endgame content, as the difficulty will have been reduced so much. It is the same we saw with Sunwell at the end of BC. Pre-Patch 3.0, only the hardcore endgame raiders were clearing it. Post 3.0 and pre-Wrath, with just the new talent trees and class changes, the same content was much easier even though we had the same gear and were still 70. Most likely, we’ll see something similar towards the end of Wrath. Imagine how cool it’ll be doing ICC with energy instead of mana !
So, take heart ! BM raiders will see the final content of WotLK, I’m sure of it ! They’re just unlikely to right now, while the content is still cutting edge.
“Finally, your com your statement about that BM Hunters asking themselves if they’re equal in skill to the Top 20% listed in WWS? I’d have to ask the same of all the MM and SV Hunters that haven’t stepped foot into ICC yet. Are they? Do they have the gear? probably not because if they did they’d already be doing it. Right?”
Ok… wait… no, ok…. huh ? How does what you said relate again ?
On the topic of gear, I already said in my first post that it was a minor issue, as we were not debating gear, we were debating the issue of BM’s viability compared to MM and Survival, and also, how player skill impacted this. With that out of the way…..
Not the top 20 percent, the top 20 PLAYERS. Thats a significantly different margin. The 20th Best recorded DPS on festergut was not quite 8k when I posted this and checked WMO. More over, 11 of the hunters are within 400 DPS of each other. Thats a very small margin when you consider, the amount of DPS they’re putting out, about a 5% difference between 11 players.
The point I was trying to make is that in order to put out the DPS in BM thats needed for that fight, you have to be an amazing BM player, because in the top 20 parses for BM, all of them were making the check. The issue, however, is the majority of players aren’t going to be playing at that level of skill. Therefor, logically, the majority of players will not be making that DPS check. The reason that MM and Surv are putting out better numbers on that fight is because they have a greater potential to put out damage than BM. It is easy to say “BM is ok, because look, the top 20 hunters can put out the damage needed !” I’m simply pointing out that of the top BM 20 hunters, many of them are quite close to the minimum DPS needed, and that the majority of people are not going to be performing at that level. As I explained earlier, the Best MM/Surv players are putting out 10.5-12+ K. It is therefore reasonable to assume the average endgame player should be able to put out 7.5-8k as MM/Surv, thus meeting the DPS check with ease.
“The reality of the situation is by the time they’re ready, they should be. And if they’re not. They’ll wash out on Festergut. That’s why he’s a DPS check.”
Er…. ok…. Thats true regardless of what spec you play…. move along, nothing to see here…
Here’s hoping we’ve finally addressed all the issues and come to some sort of understanding. lol Thanks for all the feedback! It’s really apprecaited.
WHOOT!! Can we end here and just call it done?
Yes we both agree on this.
I guess the best way to explain this would be. “Non Min/Max Hardcore” raiders typically select they’re spec based on a preferred playstyle. Whereas “Hardcore Min/Max” Raiders don’t care about the spec just the numbers.
And this is why I agree with you and have stressed over and over again. Players need to seek out and play with like minded players.
Saying “Topping the meters” was meant to explain in very simple terms, “Achieveing the maximum potential of the Class.” Hopefully, that helps explain that one.
As for me being out of touch on endgame raiding, we might just need to agree to disagree. I’m not sure how we can come to agreement if you’re unwilling to acknowledge that when a less than optimum spec can do enough DPS to keep the raid from wiping as viable. It’s not optimum, I agree. And I also agree that most “Competitive/Hardcore Min/Max” raiding guilds won’t even consider having a raid member that isn’t pursuing their classes top potential.
This is why I’m cool with hunters that prefer to stay specced BM not being allowed to raid in these types of guilds. It’s a difference in preferred playstyle. I guess think of it as the “It’s not just your $15/month” argument being applied to both sides.
Both are allowed to play their own way, but no one is insisting that they have to play together. I don’t even insist on that happening. Just that everyone stop saying that one isn’t capapble (read viable) of contributing enough DPS to successfully raid endgame content.
The numbers prove this is possible, so unless you know something I don’t we either agree or don’t. And I can respect that.
This is why I’m so passionate about this. Why do you have to feel bad and raid with a spec just because it does lower DPS? Not that it doesn’t do “Enough” or “Sufficient’ or heck “Achieves marginally more than required” DPS!?
I wouldn’t expect anyone to pay $15/mo to play a game that they don’t get to enjoy to the fullest. In my opinion, that’s me saying my time and $15/mo is more important than yours. And it’s not.
Here’s hoping that one day you’ll get to pew-pew with lazer kitty! XD
This is really my point. When hardcore min/maxers (I’m tired of typing quotes. lol) say things like “Not in line” or “good enough”, what they’re really saying is “All 3 specs need to do +/- x%” where x = some rediculously small margin fo difference from Blizzard. This will never happen. As long as there are 3 Talent trees there will always be a Top/Middle/Bottom.
Honestly, I’d rather have Blizzard just come out and officially say, “X=Raiding, Y=PvP, Z=Leveling/Grinding/Whateverelse.” At least then there wouldn’t be a debate or hard feelings on either side.
But Blizz doesn’t do that because they do want all three talent trees raid viable. And at the same time they recognize that one will always be less optimimum than the others.
Until ALL of us players begin to realize that it’s us that set the barriers of entry for players. Not Blizzard. Feelings will get hurt and we’ll continue to have this debate.
I think I went through this in pretty good detail. And I admit I misread what you had written the first time. But, even if though it’s the Top-20 players right now. It’s ONLY the Top-20 players at this time.
As time marches on you’ll notice more and more players with similar specs and raid compositions completing the same raids later on. (Manytimes before the boss nerfs occur.)
The Top-20 hunters/guilds/players are there because they have the time and commitment to be there. However, given time you’ll see more and more players achieveing the same lofty DPS targets and boss kills.
The Top Hunters/Players/Guilds are not always TOP just because they have super human skills, but because they play their characters in more targetd condensed bursts. Think of it as a Volkswagon bug vs. Porsche driving from Los Angeles to San Francisco. Both will eventually get there but the Porsche will always get there first. (Lame, but I’m running out of time and hoping to address all of these. Sorry. Hope that helps explain my point.)
Right, so this really applies to the previous point. Since BM Hunters can achieve this goal, then they’re viable. But because they do less DPS they’re not optimum.
Hardcore Min/Maxing is all about optimization. Casuals need to understand this. Many don’t and feel they deserve to be allowed to raid with those that pursue optimization.
I know it sounds confusing, I don’t advocate this. I really think Min/Maxers raid with Min/Maxers. They’ll always see the content ahead of non-min/maxing players.
However, Hardcore Min/Maxing Players need to stop telling Casual Raiders that they’re doing it wrong. They’re not. They’re only doing it differently.
Well, I hope that helps clear the air here and we can move on now.
Thanks a ton for all the comments Necrie! And again, I’m truly sorry for being a jerk in my first response. I really did misread and misunderstood the entire post.
Happy Hunting – Take care.
Heya Necrie
Before I say anything else, I want to make sure to apologize for being insulting and rude. I can see now I completely misread your first response and then applied that mistake throughout it. So please take my humble apology.
I’ll try to be clearer and lest snarky with my comments to your last two posts below. Hopefully, we’ll end up with a pretty good understanding or worse case, respectfully agree to disagree.
Also, I’ll do my best to remain as analytical and rational on my responses as possible. I’ll admit that sometimes in my zeal to defend the underdog my point gets lost. So this might not be the most exciting response, but hopefully one that will address not further confuse the issue.
Only the Most “elite” BM Hunters can turn out the required DPS
My first response to this was stated you had a lot of “fallacies and half truths”. You’re absolutely correct, I should have backed up this point with better evidence and a clearer explanation.
As I understand what you’re saying. Based on the 20 Best reports currently available, BM hunters are churning out reports BM Hunters are reporting between 8-9.5k DPS. And assuming that Frostheim is correct that the the average DPS required is 7.6k DPS then this is the minimum required for any DPS to raid. BM Hunter, MM/SV Hunter, Mage etc… I think we can agree to this point, correct?
The question now become, what were these same BM Hunters doing before ICC? What where they doing when TOGC was first released? I’m certain their numbers weren’t the same as they are today. Do you? I’m pretty certain their numbers were lower.
This is what I mean by it being half truthful. You’re not representing the situations correctly. You’re asking the reader if they’re able to pull the same amount of DPS right now as the top tier endgame raiding guilds are. The obvious answer is no. But you never gave them the chance to say, “But when I’m there I might.” or “Well, I’m pulling similar numbers to what those guys did when they were running ToGC, so yeah. I’m pretty confident I can.”
Also, please understand, unless we dig back through the reports and compare the top end guilds reports then to the guilds completing that content today we really can’t give even a reliable answer.
However, what we do know is that guilds today with different raid compositions are able to clear content today that the top-tier guilds completed a long, long time ago.
Also, one final point on why your argument has lots of holes. In these dps comparisons, you’re comparing BM Hunter vs. BM Hunter. That’s great is showing what others are capable of achieving and what the targets should be for specific spec maybe. But not when determining the viability of a DPS player.
When Frost and I discussed this topic I had asked what is the “Average DPS” for Festergut NOT the “Average Hunter DPS”.
Killing a boss is really just a numbers game.
Basically,
Damage Done to Down Boss > Damage Required To Cause a Wipe(Probably not worded the best, but hopefully the meaning got through.)
In reality, if you could take 6 Locks (I’m not sure why you would, but for argument’s sake.) And they could do enough damage to kill the boss before a wipe, then that composition would work. (not meaning in reality, just a hypothetical example.)
What I’m trying to get to, is to determin what is viable or not you really need to know, what’s the “Raid” DPS required. Then add up all of the team members and see if that DPS is greater than the requirement. If so then they can successfully down the boss and get the shinies.
If not, then that raid group isn’t viable. And if the BM Hunter is on the bottom, then that Hunter isn’t viable.
But what you see in the reports provided. That’s not happening. BM Hunters are viable and they’re not at the very bottom.
So again, this proves the point that BM is a viable endgame raiding spec, just not optimum.
Disagreeing on BM being able to raid “Progressive Endgame Content”
I’m hoping the new paragraph heading will help make sure we both remain on the same page here.
We’re using the same definition. “Latest and greatest” content.
And again, I wont’ argue about the viability of BM Hunters because even your own numbers proved it’s possible and that the DPS range is achievable by qualified BM Hunters.
Casual vs. Hardcore Raiding preferences
I’ll just cut it short and say I’m pretty sure we’re in agreement here. I understand that hardcore will always about min/maxing to the fullest. And that’s their preferred method of raiding.
I don’t have any issue with this. However, what I do have issue with, is a hardcore min/maxer insisting that BM or any less than optimum spec is the only way to raid. This is not true. (Again, I see you’re not saying this, but just stressing the point.)
Really, what needs to happen. The casual players NEED to recognize their limitations. They can’t insist on having the same immediate opportunities as the progressive min/maxers.
And also understand I’ve never insisted on this. I’ve always argued the opposite. If you’re in a Min/Max guild, then you need to min/max or find another guild those are really your only options.
However, the same is said for the min/maxer. Stop insisting that your (again not you personally) min/max strategy is the only possible way of succeeding. It clearly isn’t. It’s only the most optimum way of clearing a raid. Not the only way.
Checking off the TLDR
So there, are we cool now? Can I buy you beer?
Thanks again for taking the time Necrie for responding. I greatly appreciate it.
Beer gooood !!!
None of that sissy human stuff though… Dwarven Stout all the way !
In seriousness though, I think we’ve reached consensus
Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Oh, and the numbers I was quoting were for Festergut as well. I got ‘em from WMO, same as frost. Just go to the main page, Scoreboard drop-down, then click class DPS rankings. After that, you can click on the hunter icon for any of the boss fights. On the next page, there will be an option to sort by spec, or to list all specs. Its nifty. Here’s the link for all specs to save anyone curious some time ^_^
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/dps/hnt/9/0/3/0
Enjoy !
You’re saying that there’s a difference between a BM hunter’s maximum potential and a MM hunter’s maximum potential. There isn’t – there is only the maximum potential for a hunter with the resources (gear, buffs, etc) that he has, and it is up to him to balance the talents, gems, enchants, food, flask, and shot priority to maximize his DPS.
A BM hunter is doing 30% less damage than he could be if he respecced. Let’s say that your Festergut minimum DPS is 7.6k, as you said. A BM hunter is putting out 8k – 30% less than he could be – and another DPSer, perhaps with less gear, maybe because he’s newer, maybe because his DPS set is an offset, and he’s usually a tank or a healer, let’s say he’s only putting out 7k. Everyone else is just making their minimum, and you fail to kill the boss. Let’s define performance as “your DPS, divided by the best DPS that you could do with your class and gear in this particular fight”. The hunter is the character whose ‘performance’ was the worst – his was 0.7. The other character, the offspec DPSer, was indeed below the limit – he did pretty well, all said. Let’s say his best possible DPS was about 7.4k, giving him a performance of about 0.95. The hunter is the character with more room to improve. He’s the one who could do the most to improve the raid, and is choosing not to do it. On the other hand, you’re blaming the wipe on someone who is playing their character far more optimally than the hunter, but who just has a lower potential. This doesn’t make sense to me.
I’m sorry that my point seemed confusing. I’ll try one more time.
For the sake of this argument we have to assume that the player is choosing to play BM. However, we also have to assume that the RL accepted this condition by including them into the raid.
That being the case everyone already knows that individual hunter’s max potential. And they also know that individual’s max potential is less than it could be if they respecced but didn’t require it.
So everyone has accepted the risk. How is this the hunter’s fault? Are you saying that the RL didn’t know the hunter could respec and potentially have more DPS? That being the case I’d be leery of having that individual as my Raid Leader. But whatever, let’s move on.
Now you’ve wiped and it’s time for review. When you do your raids postmortem and you realize that one player with a lower overall class potential was achieving that goal but still under the Hunter. And the Hunter was achieving their max potential as a BM hunter you are faced with the choices I mentioned.
A. The BM Hunter can voluntarily make a change to their playskill, spec or drop from the raid.
B. The Raid can make the Hunter respecc forcing the Hunter to decide if they really want to respec and continue raiding or lose their raid spot.
C. Boot the hunter and get another player that can achieve the DPS target.
or what I honestly feel is the more correct answer.
D. Stop blaming the BM Hunter and boot the Raid Leader along with the underperforming class.
Because unless the underperforming class brings something else of value to the raid then the RL purposefully chose to gimp the raid by bringing them along.
Wait, so, Brigwyn, this is you right? Right name, right Guild…
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khadgar&cn=Brigwyn&gn=Concedo+Nulli
Dude, you haven’t done ANYTHING in ICC (Wont even touch the WTF gear). All you have is Ignis- Maly- and Ony. Did you reroll or something? Where’s this voice-on-high comming from, youtube or forums?
How can you to say that BM is fine for end game when you havent even been there?
You’ve dont even have the first boss… heck you you havent even done Uldar!
Some people have made solid points here, and all youve done is blow noise at em. Quote their points, and say why it’s wrong, or all you have is a lot of air.
YAY! You can use the WoW Armory!! Too bad you haven’t figured out how to read About pages on blogs, Research an author, or at the very least read my comments or posts.
Here’s some links to get you started:
About The Hunting Lodge: http://www.brigwyn.com/about/
Explanation on Playstyle: http://www.brigwyn.com/2009/03/16/wtf-brig-are-you-nutzz/
Now as for addressing peoples comments directly? Again, if you bothered to actually read my comments to Necrie and Mavrande you’d see I actuallly addressed specific points and explained on what and why I disagreed.
Also, you’ll notice nowhere do any of us actually disagree on the point regarding viability but on the philosophical question about playstyle choice.
So do me a favor. While you’re enjoying yourself tebagging a blender try and think of how you can actually contribute to the conversation instead of trying to apply the John Gabriel’s Internet FWad theory to it’s fullest.
Since when do you have to be decked out in most epic ICC drop gear to know how to comment on how to play a class?
/shrug I dunno. I think maybe he got lost on his way to Elitist Jerks or maybe the Official Hunter Forums?
I have one question- how is comparing the top MM hunters with the top BM hunters a valid comparison, especially as far as the so-called 20%-30% loss of dps? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to compare hunters of the same gear and skill level? Logically, that would call for looking at hunters of different specs WITHIN THE SAME RAID. Take the top BM hunters and compare their dps to the other hunters in the same raids, and you will not find a 20% or more difference. In many cases, you will actually see them out-dpsing their MM counterparts.
I have never seen another hunter do 20%-30% more dps than me, not even 10%. So at least in my situation, BM is “raid viable”. The key really seems to be how you define that term. If it means top 5 dps in a 25 man ICC normal mode on my server, then I am more than raid viable. First or second in dps on my guild’s 25 ToC run or 10 man ICC? Again, BM is certainly raid viable. For guilds doing world firsts, or even ICC hard mode, maybe not. But I wouldn’t bet on it without seeing some valid comparisons, and not just spreadsheet simualtions.
Heya Bill!
Thanks for dropping by and reinforcing the point I’m trying to make. It’s about the player and not the Class/Spec decision.
I keep on saying time and time again, if one spec truly wasn’t viable then the devs would fix it. But because they are viable, they never really addressed it.
I guess look at it this way. Part of the great nerf or 3.0.8 involved the a nerf to Volley.
Hunter screamed that this was too much. That a nerf like this would crush the Hunter’s ability to do any reasonable AoE.
True enough this happened. Blizzard saw that Hunters weren’t able to do a reasonable amount of AoE damage and finally made some changes.
Now Hunters are not necessarily the top AoE damage dealers. But they’re able to do enough so they’re not sat down on the sidelines while another class performs that same function.
Thanks again Bill! Greatly appreciate you stopping by.
Happy Hunting!
hi guys as im sure you all know every class has 3 specs ,of which some seem to be better than others , i hopefull that blizzard allows for any class and spec to be able to take part and complete end game raids ,every time there is a new patch etc we get what we lovingly call a nerf or a boost ,which is then after much moaning or cheering depending on which side of the road the later applies too , we proceed to experiment with the specs seeking the best performance from them ,which i must say there is always a way to do it ,whether your bm , mm, sv , its just working it out ,in this case it,s easier to work it out using mm and sv atm ,i have seen bm hunters outputting 7.5k dps so it is doable and tbh a great and welcome suprise to witness a bit less time arguing about mm and sv being better and more experimenting with bm may yet surprise us all ,remember blizz arnt gonna make a spec that cant perform we,d all be asking for our money bk if they did lol .I,d suggest stick to the spec you know best and plz plz have a go at bm see what you can do any and all input is helpfull .ty guys grom happy hunting
Thanks for “getting it” Brig. I for one, miss you a lot on wow.com.