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In yet another post over on WoW.com we see another slight against the beleagured Beast Master Spec. In a post on Friday, Brian Wood, aka Frostheim, decided against reporting on the single change to the Hunter community on the recently announced PTR 3.3.3 Patch Notes. But instead report on Ghostcrawler’s reasoning for not giving Beaster Mastery a bigger buff.
Now if that’s all that was said in his post it really wouldn’t be news. But nope, instead it looks to me as if he decided to again try and justify his stance on raiding as Beast Mastery.
We all know that Frostheim and I agreed that it’s really a philosophical choice and that all three hunter raiding specs are viable, just not optimum.
But now it seems Frostheim decided to take this as an opportunity to claim that Blizzard themselves have claimed BM is not raid viable!!
WTH!?!? When did that happen? Seriously! When has anyone, Ghostcrawler, Bornakk, Chilton, ANYONE at Blizzard ever come right out and say, “Beast Mastery is not raid viable.” Anyone!?!?
Seriously though, there is one, ONE! NUMERO UNO! Un, 1!! Quote from Bornak back on December 22 at 8:39:20 AM that even hints at viability. (Is this specific enough for you?)
In response to a players question about having 3 “viable” specs for all areas of the game meaning PvP and PvE. Bornakk responded:
“We’d love to have every spec viable for all aspects of the game, it just rarely turns out that way since balancing can be pretty tricky. At this stage in the game we aren’t planning to make many (if any) big changes to classes since we are already working on doing just that for Cataclysm so that’s why I wouldn’t expect much in the near future.”- Bornakk
Wait! Before you go and have you’re big “AHA! See Brig!! We told you!!” you need to see the entire context of what’s being said.
First, understand that this entire thread started off about pet optimization, specifically Beast Masters and Spirit Beasts.
This is one quote. And it’s more about addressing both PvE and PvP. NOT just about having 3 specs viable in a raid. But was anyone listening?
Nope, because ever since then we’ve seen the entire hunter up in arms and now they’re claiming they have proof that Bornakk said it wasn’t viable.
Well folks, it seems that was a premature celebration. See, Bornakk came back about 4 hours later to clarify the whole thing. I even created a post specifically about this back in December and I got the same opinion now as I did then.
In the end, yes, we do want to get BM competitive with Survival and Marks. We even did some buffs in 3.3 to help them get there but the reason for my comments earlier is that we’d rather have two viable raiding specs than just one so Hunters as a whole are not in terrible shape. Eventually we do plan to get all 3 there. Just remember that when players obsess about 1% differences in dps you can understand why that task is pretty gigantic. There are probably more raiding BM hunters in 3.3 than in 3.2 and probably a lot more than there are Subtlety rogues (sorry for the example rogues, but you/we know it’s true). It’s far from a dead spec. – Bornakk
Now i know you read this and saw what seems like Bornakk saying that it’s not viable. But read it again. Not just that part. See the part where Bornakk states, “Just remember that when players obsess about 1% differences in dps you can understand why that task is pretty gigantic.”
Yeah, that part. See that’s not truly talking about “viability” in the true sense of the word. It’s talking about how the Competitive Raiders define it which we all know is REALLY “Raid Optimum.”
How can I dare say such a thing?
Read the last two sentences from Bornakk again.
“There are probably more raiding BM hunters in 3.3 than in 3.2 and probably a lot more than there are Subtlety rogues (sorry for the example rogues, but you/we know it’s true). It’s far from a dead spec.”
So there you go. A true unbiased report on what Blizzard really thinks of Beast Mastery’s ability to raid.
- Yes, Beast Master IS Raid VIABLE
- Yes, it does less damage.
- Yes, as Ghostcrawler put it, buffing our “Big Red Dot” really isn’t the right answer.
- Yes, maybe increasing pet damage would increase BM’s overall damage, but it would also increase Marks and Survival damage. Maybe not as much, but it would still be in increase.
Are we all happy now? Can we please. PLEASE! Put this issue to rest?
And one last note to ForstHeim and other bloggers out there.
Please, can we make sure and keep our developer quotes in context? It’s this type of misrepresentation, even by accident, that drives them nuts and eventually stops them from communicating with us.
Well, this was a bit longer than I had planned. So here’s the simple TLDR.
- Frostheim posts that Blizzard isn’t fixing BM’s (Nothing new)
- Frostheim claims Blizzard admits that BM is not raid viable.
- Brigwyn points out that Blizzard never stated such.
- Brigwyn shows that Bornakk actually said BM IS RAID VIABLE.
- Brigwyn has a headache from this debate.
Thanks all!
(Note: Thanks to Lady Jess of Lady Jess: Life, Love, Games, Hooah for pointing out that I needed to edit the 2nd paragraph. Hopefully it makes more sense now.)
Eddie “Brigwyn” Carrington is often known as being that crazy dwarf on Twitter.
He's also a blogger, podcaster (Hosts Brigwyn's Corner, Co-host of Everything Blah! and of course Redneck Geek and Cajun Gamer with his good friend Andy "Daewin" Dino. 
\facepalm! Another stab at Frostheim and his opinions of BM in progression raiding.
I may or may not visit the blog agin, reading angry washy reaction posts about what another blogger opinion is, is not how I like to spend my blog rolling. On topic Bornakk’s comment definately sounds like he believes there are only two raid viable hunter specs, and they hope to get BM there. Frost proved that BM is raid viable, he just went on to say he wouldn’t want one in his progression raid with him (using some fairly strong/harsh and accurate as far as I can tell from my own testing accurate comparisions).
I hope you can get over this soon, it would be great to see some light hearted squirrel chasing blogs than 1 man argue a point that everyone will have made up their mind on a long time ago.
Heya Obst,
I think I might not have made my point clear enough in my post.
See, this post really isn’t so much about Frostheim’s opinion but more about what he said over at WHU and on WoW.com.
“Blizzard has acknowledged before that BM isn’t a raid viable spec (though we’ve seen that in the right circumstances they can pull their weight, though still be far behind) and they’ve stated that they would like to get to a point where all three hunter specs can raid.” – Brian Wood, AKA Frostheim on WoW.com
and then again over on WHU.
“Ghostcrawler has said many times that BM is not raid viable and they would like to buff BM to get them there.” Frostheim on WHU
Both of these comments are made claiming Blizzard had actually made a statement declaring what they felt the viability of BM as a raiding spec truly is.
However, that’s just not the case. And reporting it as such is misleading. And if it is true, then it’s something that needs to be correctly sourced as a quote or at the very least linked for reference.
Frostheim doesn’t do either of these in either of his posts. Instead he makes an undocumented claim. And that’s not fair to Blizzard nor the community.
I’m sorry you feel this is turning into a personal crusade against Frost. It really isn’t and I tried to say as much in my plea to other bloggers.
Either way, I feel that the debate is one that has properly been addressed and in the effort of being fair I’ll be more than happy to post a correction if Frostheim provides sources showing how Blizzard has made a statement regarding BM’s raid viability.
Thanks for the comment!
I really do appreciate it.
It seems to me that you’re looking for something that’s not there that points to Frostheim saying that BM raiding is not viable. From what I understand, he’s always said it’s viable but it just doesn’t compare to the DPS that a very skilled MM or SV hunter can put out. I used to be a big fan of the site when you would blog about informative topics and now it seems that you’re using it to beat a dead horse. Please shift your attentions elsewhere Brig and make the lodge as constructive as it used to be instead of using it to disparage Frostheim and his blog. By the way this quote from Bornakk is taken from the same thread you linked.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/22050165921-any-plans-to-buff-spirit-beasts.html
In regards to BM raiding: “It may not be great for raiding but is still good for leveling while both Marks and Surv are competitive for raiding. I wouldn’t expect any big changes for now.”
Prolix,
I really appreciate the comment. And I’m starting to realize that I may not have been as clear in the post as I was hoping
The point that I am trying to make is that people who quote the blues, myself included need to be careful and not state things that just are’t there.
I mentioned the 2 comments in my response to Obst above that highlight my concern with Frost’s posts.
Though it may seem like it, I’m not on a personal crusade against Frost, WoW.com or WHU.
HOWEVER if I read something that strikes a nerve I’ll post my response on it. And in this case taking comments out of context and making claims on Blizzard saying something that just isn’t true. Then yes, I’ll rage against it.
Also, if you read the ending. I stressed how I really hope that this is the end of this debate and we can all move on.
Thanks again for the comment. I do appreciate it.
Is anyone actually taking the time to read the Frostheim blog before posting here?! He made an inaccurate statement about BM’s raid viability. End of story. Brigwyn noticed it, called him out on it and provided proof of the contrary. What’s all the big hoopla about now?! So Brigwyn is on some crazed blog attack against Frostheim because he disagreed with a post and is commenting on something he is passionate about. Come on now! This has been a debate on many other forums for a long time and is still a hot topic. I believe the point that was trying to be made is that although BM may not be the super epic uber spec for raiding it is still a V I A B L E spec in the hands of someone skilled with their class. And by viable it can dps hard enough to get the boss down and not hold the group back. Whether Frostheim got his facts wrong or simply misquoted reports from Blizz is neither here nor there, Brigwyn saw that something was reported wrong and posted his side and a correction. And as far as “beating a dead horse” goes, all of Brig’s follow-ups have been in response to something, he’s not running around randomly posting on this topic. There, my 2 cents.
To bed with you now BM debate, take and ambien and off to bed.
It seems a stretch to use the above quote to say that blizzard has confirmed the raid viability of BM. They say people [b]are[/b] raiding as BM which is a pretty far cry from saying they [b]should[/b] raid as BM, that BM is viable as a raid spec, or that BM is remotely competitive with the other two specs. Given the current state of the spec I doubt you’d ever get a blizzard rep to say that BM is raid viable.
Personally I don’t really get this whole fight between Frostheim and the BM community. If you want to raid as BM and your guild is cool with it, more power to you. As long as you walk into it with your eyes open, IE Knowing that BM does significantly less damage, I don’t really see the problem.
It’s no worse than carrying an under geared guildie through content. It’s just not something cutting edge progress guilds would do since they need everyone at the top of their game.
Hey Grim,
Actually I know it seems like I’m in a disagreeable mood lately, but I’ll have to disagree with you on that statement.
By saying something isn’t dead and that players are able to successfully raid as a lesser DPS producing spec is claiming that it’s indeed viable in the true definition of the word.
However, I will also agree with you that it’s not an optimum DPS spec and most raiders and their GMs want to pursue the most optimum specs.
I was going to post a long list of quotes but then realized I already went through this debate a year ago. (Man things really don’t change do they.)
If you read this post and look at GC’s comments you’ll see the entire development approach layed out.
Do they ever use the word “Viable” no they try not to because then players would latch onto it and bully other players. But read the quotes and comments by GC. You’ll notice that they make sure that all three specs are VIABLE just not OPTIMUM.
But that’s really neither hear nor there, as I’ve tried time and time again to point out. My issue is with Frost’s misrepresentation of what Blizzard has said.
That’s only one long rampaging series of posts by GC back in January last year. Since then we’ve discussed on THL Podcast sever times Blizzard’s design and class balance philosophy.
Trust me, if Blizzard ever just said flat out, “HEY! We give up and BM is not raid viable. Use it only for leveling and PvP.” I’d be all over it.
Oh. and thank you very much for your comment.
It’s truly appreciated.