Star Wars: The Old Republic is the MMO for RPG Gamers who are more concerned about their own character than the adventure.
There I said it. And even though I have only had a very limited time playing the Beta. I have read a ton of reviews and player diaries. And I can’t tell you how many YouTube videos I’ve watched. All of this trying to find a something to spark an interest in playing this game.
See, I like the Star Wars universe. No, I can’t say I love it, but I do really like it. I’ve read a dozen or so Star Wars books. I’ve watched every Star Wars film enough times to I get groans from family when I suggest it. Heck, I’ve even grown to like Jar Jar Binks! But for some reason, I just have no real desire to play The Old Republic.
Then it dawned on me. That the reason I don’t like The Old Republic is really the same reason I’m having a tough time with MMO’s in general. Games today fail to deliver the feeling one is part of an epic, do or die, group adventure.
Oh sure, The Old Republic has group play with Flashpoints. But the storyline isn’t really do or die. (Well, not from what I have seen anyways.)
Everyone talks about how amazed they are by the story. Players go on and on about how much they identify with THEIR CHARACTER. How each choice they make impacts their characters INDIVIDUAL development.
Basically, the impression I get is when you play The Old Republic is, “It’s all about ME!”
Where’s the dynamic of your party heading off on an adventure to save the world? (Or in this case the galaxy.)
And like I mentioned before, this isn’t just an issue with TOR, it’s the same with World of Warcraft and in a lesser degree Rift. Every single MMO today focuses on creating a game that individual players feel special.
Where, individual players can save the day. Oh sure, maybe we need to group up with our guild mates to clear a Dungeon or Raid. But other than that it’s all about me. Simply put, every game we call an MMORPG today is nothing more than a Single Player Role Playing Game with Co-Op play.
And if I’m correct, this explains why Star Wars will be such a huge success. It’s an epic story about each character fulfilling their own grand adventure coming together and Co-operating only when they have to. It’s a perfect game for those who prefer individual character development with optional group play.
Simply put, gamers today don’t want to be simple adventurers, they want to be gods!
The group dynamic IS THERE. You keep saying things like this like it doesn’t exist. You can if you want, quest entirely in group. Many of my guildies are doing so. And when in a group there is a whole different dynamic to the dialog with quest givers and quest NPC’s! Your entire group participates in the dialog, as I explained in my post today. You very much can get a group together and be saving the world as a group, and I have no idea where you think that isn’t in there. In fact, it’s one of the great things about the game. Yes your own class storyline is very immersive, but it isn’t the be all end all of the game.
My personal playstyle drives me to do that as my priority, but my playstyle isn’t anyone elses, or representative of the game as a whole.
Sorry Jess. But somehow we must not be communicating clearly for each other.
My views and opinions are not based solely on your posts. As I said, they’re based on numerous reviews from lot’s of other game sites and players. So far EVERYONE has communicated the same thing. They all go on to say that flashpoints are great dungeons. And the story mechanic is unique.
That said, no one, even yourself, has managed to convey besides genre and the voice acted cut scenes, that this is anything different from any other MMO out there today.
And as I stated, what’s out there today is more like playing an RPG with optional Co-Op dungeon play.
You make claims that there’s an epic group adventure feel to the game, yet neither yourself NOR anyone else has ever conveyed that. If they have, please point me to them. I’m honestly trying to like this game. I WANT to like and play this game. But unfortunately, it has failed to convey any sense of being a true EPIC GROUP ADVENTURE.
Therefore, my opinions are valid because no one is either willing, capable to explain how SWTOR, RIFT, or any other MMO out there has successfully captured this same emotional dynamic.
Brig, I’ve been seeing your tweets and I just have to respond.
I agree with your sentiments about epic games and teamwork. You should certainly know I do, if you’ve seen me on twitter; games are boring and worthless without socializing, without friends, and (for me) without tons of other nerds being super competitive and teamwork-focused to kill very large internet dargons. Games without other people are nothing to me. I am the most committed team player and multi-player MMO fanatic you will find.
I scoffed at the whole idea of Star Wars from the start, especially their attitude towards endgame. Yet here I am, playing it, and drooling over it like everyone else.
Frankly I just don’t understand your view at all, and I’ll try to explain from my side of it. I think that you are reflecting your MMO burnout on Star Wars, but that’s not the fault of the game.
Your issue is that none of our chatter about Star Wars has engaged you in it. That’s absolutely fair. I agree, the majority of the chatter has been about the low-level story experience. But the problem is information overload, not the game.
You don’t understand how different this is. Wow never did this. RIFT never did this. Those games SUCKED at single player in comparison. SW TOR succeeds, and it’s incredible.
That doesn’t mean it fails at multiplayer– not at all. It just means it succeeds at something new, something that this genre has never, ever seen on this level before- not even close, not once– and that’s not a failure, that is a success. Of epic proportions. But our awe at this part of the game is of course, overshadowing the information available on the multiplayer.
It’s there. I promise. You’re just not seeing the forest for the trees.
I’ll share with you some information about the multiplayer, because I am in fact hearing about it– just less often. Let me tell you, I’ve been getting emails from friends about daily quests, group quests, flashpoints, and group dynamics. I’ve sought out servers to play on with others. I’ve engaged in (polite) gen chat, and I’ve done every multi-person quest I can get my hands on.
I’ve heard really compelling things about PVP and about the Flashpoints, group dungeons. It’s there, and it’s working right.
I’ve also found myself happily having to group with my fellow levelers to do Heroic 2+ dungeons and kill elites. The end-dungeon and end-quest mobs in SW are certainly tuned harder and feel “more epic” than wow leveling.
It’s not that it’s not there, Brig. It’s just less impressive that it’s there, right now, to us, so you’re not hearing about it as much.
Sorry that we are drooling over it, but it’s the truth– no other game has done this quite this right, so we are drooling over it and screaming about how great it is. But that certainly doesn’t make the rest of it bad. On the contrary, I have heard it’s quite strong.
Give it time. Soon we’ll treat it like an MMO, and I promise, the multiplayer will hold up. But let us drool over the single player for a while because it’s new and shiney.
THANK YOU! Thank you for getting what I’m trying to say. More importantly thanks for validating my own perceptions that all the information currently out there basically talks about the game being “All about me!”
I see your point. Yes, all previous MMOs have failed miserably at making one’s character involvment being important. By using cut scenes and dialogue my character is more ingrained in the story than ever before.
Unfortunately, the by product of all the coverage focusing on this “wizzbang” character involvment, is it alienates players who desire that feeling that one is part of a do or die epic GROUP adventure.
All that said, I do appreciate that you suggest I wait till the shiny wears off. Hopefully by then people will be able to convey more information about the group dynamics and how one feels they’re on an adventure with more than their own companions.
As much as it sickens me to defend SW:TOR (frankly, I was bored to tears in the beta), I do have to disagree with the notion that SW:TOR is the MMO for those that care more about their character than the story.
To start with, caring more about the character than the story is almost an MMO staple at this point. No matter the game, people tend to care more about their character than the world as a whole. Look at how many people interested in loot/mount/pet/title collecting…tons of people! And even you yourself have said that a large part of what made you leave WoW was “He just wasn’t me!” If anything, I’d argue that the way that SW:TOR works in it’s storytelling (via spoken dialogue and/or cutscenes) makes the player care more about the world, not less.
And let’s be quite honest: while SW:TOR may have better individual character customization than WoW, it still is not all that impressive. Most of the races I thought looked almost the same, with only a couple real differences. The difference between playing as an elf or an anthropomorphic cow seemed far stronger IMHO than any varied customization in SW:TOR allowed. The body mass slider on most female toons only changes the size of their ass near as I can tell. The only real strong customization I saw was being able to align your character with light or dark, based upon quest answers.
And while I’m ranting here and stating part of the problem with SW:TOR from a character standpoint, this seems like a good spot to discuss the dialogue. I’ve heard so many people talk about how customized it makes the experience. Perhaps on one toon, but having tried a couple of alts I feel I can safely say it does not customize a lot. You maybe get a little more to the light or dark side, and maybe get an extra quest here or there. But 90% of the time, it seems like 3 clicks vs. 4 clicks to get to the exact same portion of the story. Yay.
I’m not entirely sure I agree with you in that the use of cut scenes and dialogue makes one care more about the world than their own character. But that could be due more to my limited play time. So I’m willing to accept that you may be correct.
As for your criticsm about the game itself? Like you I found it to be more intrusive. Oh sure, I could just hit space bar and go on, but that left me with a nagging feeling that I missed something. You know, it’s that same feeling that makes you drive all the way back home just to double check that you did turn off the iron?
As for character races and customizations, this was and still is something that bugs me. Honestly, why couldn’t I be a Jawa? Or a furry SnaggleTooth? Something other than a boring human? People point to Twi’lek(sp?) and Sith, but both of those are basically humans and not that different. So I totally agree, that for a world with such diversity, i was amazed at the lack of choice.
Then again, look at rift. Their character creation choices are so limited that your Kalari basically ends up looking like an Elf with a suntan. /facepalm
I’m not sure why game developers shy away from playable anthropomorphic characters. I claim Furry Discrimination!! lol
Thanks for writing Anger, you’ve given me some food for thought.
Well, so far, me and my buddies saved a whole cruise o civilians, a few planets directly, a few others indirectly by destroying weapons as powerful as the death star (or more).
We hunted some pretty nasty genocidal generals, some slavers and some genocidal slavers generals.
We engaged in some pretty awesome suicidal missions (Taris V and Maelstrom… damn) and came out barely alive.
Even PvP have good background stories.
To summarize, I pretty much can’t see the lack of greatness in the game adventures. Maybe the people you are following are more interested on different aspects then you are. Maybe it is just different points of view.
Now, changing the subject a little, when you played it during beta, was there anything that you liked in the game that you don’t see people talking about?
[]‘s
@Edmar
I don’t doubt that there is a sense of Epicness to your character’s storyline. And as I admitted in my post I didn’t have the opportunity to do any group play. And I especially wish I had the opportunity to participate in a flashpoint. And because of this I’m perfectly willing to admit that my very limited firsthand exposure could be overly influencing my opinion. So hearing from others that they ARE getting a sense of “Group Adventure” is something I’m very pleased to hear. Unfortunately though, as I mentioned, no one is really talking about it that much.
You asked if there was anything I found positive about TOR. There were several. Though they all tend to be either be about the game play mechanics or my individual character. All of which would be great for a Single Player RPG but don’t really apply to the sense of “Group Adventure.” But you asked so here’s a few of my favorite things about TOR.
1) The individual character storyline is extremely rich and immersive. Something future MMOs need to find a way to include but with balance.
2) I really enjoyed the use of targeting, cover, and defense during battles. It forced me to think more strategically and I really appreciated that.
3) Though not experienced first hand, I really like how Crafting doesn’t take ME away from the game. I can still play while my companions complete the tasks.
4) I also really enjoyed knowing there was a consequence for my actions. Though I probably though too much about what the long term consequences would mean, I loved the idea that the game wasn’t completely amoral. It was probably the one thing that reminded me of D&D the most. I still can’t believe I honestly wanted to play a Lawful Good Paladin. /facepalm ROFL!
Thanks again for visiting and writing in. I really do appreciate it.
To put it frankly, that would be what would draw me to TOR in the first place. I stopped raiding in WoW because the people are horrible. When my progression guild imploded (TWICE) due to personality conflicts, I was forced to PUG, and the people are just awful. I got so fed up with end content drama-queens, prima dona tanks, whiny heals, incompetent or just mean spirited players all around, that I quit raiding for good. I still play, but now its just my wife and I and occasionally some old friends, tackling content. Sounds like SWTOR would be perfect.
@Malafide
Ouch! I’m sorry you’re MMO experiences have been so lousy. That really does suck.
But I do have one question for you. If your previous experience with MMOs was so negative, why play an MMO at all? Why not just play a Single Player RPG instead?
I’m not trying to be negative or sarastic. I truly don’t understand why you would want to put yourself in that situation.
It is true you could, and I often do, play an MMO solo, you would miss out on a lot of what the developers intended. In order to get the full experience and realize the full value of the game one would need to play with other people. After all, the MM in MMORPG does stand for Massively Multiplayer .
Anyways, I appreciate your thoughts and wish you the best. Good luck!
Truly what you are looking for does not exist. As an old school paper and dice role player, I can say what you are missing is being part of the story, not being immersed in a story. In classic role playing the story emeges as an co-operative effort between the players and the game master. Once told the story is original to the players, no one else did the same story, and it becomes part of the history of the world no matter how small.
In MMO’s all the stories have been written, some may have multiple endings, but everything is pre-written. Nothing you do has an impact on the world, you can’t leave “LukeSkywalker59 was here” scrawled on the wall. Those pirates you defeated will be back tommorow for LukeSkywalker60 to defeat tommorow while leveling.
What I wish we could have is an MMO driven by the players. The “Sandbox” style MMO yet to be perfected.
@Gak
That’s the very topic of my follow-up post. http://brigwyn.com/2012/01/excuse-me-i-think-your-mmo-is-missing-something/
Funny you mention old school table top RPGs. LOL
Anyways, I’m not entirely sure I subscribe that it’s all due to an unchanging world or that the player doesn’t feel they’ve made an impact. Though I do admit it has a big impact on the repeatability. And let’s not forget those that really enjoy Role Playing. I agree that they’re completely out of luck.
Sandbox MMOs would be great for feeling one is part of the world and help increase the sense of originality and immersion but would it really help promote “Group Adventure?” That I’m not entirely sure.
Either way, I totally agree with you that if things continue the way they are I think we’ll soon be saying goodbye to traditional Themepark MMOs.
Thanks for stopping by!
I didn’t read all the replies here, so I might be reacting in ways that were already expressed, but I’ll throw in my two cents on meaningful group play.
When there is no player owned content to lose, there is no compelling reason to do anything but co-op, as you have pointed out. Let me give an example of how one game made it important. Just before WoW, there was Shadowbane. In Shadowbane, guilds could build their own towns, vendors and trainers. Heavy farming went into constructing these facilities. People spent hours helping each other to build cities that were used to further the characters by creating equipment and providing high level trainers. Large guilds were able to create tremendous structures in which they took great pride.
And the beauty of it — the genius of it that kept us coming back obsessively (despite the constant game crashing we had to endure) — was that it could all be ruined by opposing guilds. The “bane” part of the game’s name referred to the bane that a guild could place on an enemy guild’s city, enabling an attack that could destroy the entire settlement. Structures could always be attacked and demolished, and it required constant vigilance by your guild, and often alliances with neighboring guilds, to keep your cities from being trashed on a regular basis.
The game was full FFA, so you never knew if someone you came across was friend or foe until they stuck a dagger in your side. This necessitated group questing, because if two enemies snuck up on you, you were going to die. And that meant (another huge element fully removed from modern games) that your inventory could be fully looted. This created urgency to find and maintain a good guild standing so that you had friends to adventure with. Solo play, while possible, was highly prohibitive due to the looting and lack of access to resources.
This kind of system, where people are heavily invested in their guild and its resources, encourages the kind of truly epic battles we dream about, where your town is at risk, and sitting out or hanging around at the auction house while the town is under siege would mean guild expulsion and ridicule. Guilds assembling together on a hill in disparate groups, with little more than the chat system to coordinate them, offered a real feeling of barbarian conflict.
And one of the healer classes was able to hurl fireballs. So that made it my favorite game ever.
But the epic battles were nice, too.
@ap
J/K lol
Um.. Excuse me a sec.. I ‘ll be right back. Reading that gave me a chubby.
Seriously though, there is so much right with what you’ve shared. I’m sure much of it would frustrate the hell out of me. (The FFA PvP for example) But on the flip side I know I could easily become obsessed with preparation and helping my guildmates prepare and defend from possible attack.
I think you’re 100% correct. If one doesn’t have anything to lose then one will always say WTF! And move forward without a care in the world.
Man! Thanks for contributing! Even though now I think I’m even more depressed about the current state of MMOs. lol